They're still living in the dark ages.......

[RogerC]

Yet another 'oh woe.....oh woe' tale of understandably caring outpouring but IMO a naive one.  Whilst caring for the desperate and those fleeing  danger is laudable it is simply not possible to cover all eventualities and everyone affected.  It is simply a case of there not being the infrastructure that could cope with those displaced.  The best way is to address the issue at source and deter those who would venture along a potentially deadly path.

However the world can't now or indeed never has 'effectively' addressed it's refugee/displaced persons issues.  Clearly the Palestine/Israel/Arab situation is the most enduring of modern times and looks like it will possibly never be resolved....so where is the care and compassion there?  If the countries concerned can't sort out their own differences and live in peace why should, or indeed how can, others do it for them?

Similarly, someone mentioned the Vietnamese boat people.... undertook a perilous journey to what one considers a really compassionate and 'vast' in terms of land mass so not in any sense of the word over populated country....Australia.  The result was a political embarrassment towards Australia over their dealing with them.  So did the world learn from these issues?  No, at least not on the surface where lessons can be seen to be enacted.

Barry laments the loss of, as he put it, in relation to the Syrian problem:

There are 10000 children that have disappeared and are unaccounted for in the last two years making that journey.

Yes it is sad but what to do to stop the loss?  Opening the immigration flood gates will not help.  It will only make the 'end' appear more attractive and the traffickers etc will continue to prey on the already vulnerable.  Encouragement to 'leave' is not the answer.  Encouragement to 'stay' is.

Lastly, those 10,000 deaths over 2 years......deaths/unaccounted/trafficked/sold into slavery or the sex trade......whatever the answer it pales into insignificance when looked at in relation to the 'big' lesson that should have made the world more compassionate and 'effective' in dealing with mass 'humanity' issues.  That of Rwanda..........800,000....yes 800,000 slaughtered in 100 days!!!  Now if the world can sit back and let that happen, to watch from the sidelines with the UN present, there in country and observing with no 'mandate' to intervene what hope is there for other eventualities?

What of the Kurds post Gulf War?  Bombed, displaced, forced into mountainous areas between Iraq and Turkey to freeze to death.....neither country wanted them.....and the world let it happen, although the RAF did mount a number of air drop missions to try and lessen their plight.

We can help, we can offer assistance to keep people from being displaced and hopefully politicians can resolve the causes and allow these people to remain or to those that are displaced to go home.

What we can not do is provide housing, health care, education, cultural needs etc etc etc....It is no good opening the doors to all of them because we have simply not got the resources or capacity within society to cope with them.  It is a sad fact but fact it is............wars, famine, genocide etc happens and humanity still keeps learning but does not put those lessons into practice because, charitable works aside (and they frequently get it wrong) it does not know how.

[Bulletguy]

antony1969 - 2017-03-20 7:18 PM

 

Bulletguy - 2017-03-20 7:00 PM

 

antony1969 - 2017-03-20 6:07 PM

 

Barryd999 - 2017-03-20 5:58 PM

 

antony1969 - 2017-03-20 5:45 PM

 

If these are your Syrians Barry then i'll give it a miss if you dont mind but if your little village wants em thats fine .... http://www.westmonster.com/51-local-groups-in-molenbeek-linked-to-terrorism/

 

Oh well stuff em then. The 10 million+ refugees fleeing war zones in the middle east are all members of ISIS, clearly, that report says so so it must be true. That little lad dead on the beach in Greece was probably set to go mental with an AK at the first opportunity. Thats one less to worry about.

 

 

A hissy fit doesn't really answer anything does it ??? ... Had the dead kids parents gone to the nearest "safe" country then he wouldn't have died would he or if they hadn't heard about Merkels open invitation maybe they wouldn't have risked it ...

And just where do you call "safe"? Despite Syrian Kurds fighting IS in Syria, Turkey is openly hostile to them and been bombing them to bits in Syria. The family of Alan Kurdi were attempting to get to Greece with hopes of eventually emigrating to Canada where relatives lived.

 

For every body on the beach of a washed up migrant I could probably show you twenty Christians burnt to death or stoned to death ... Every picture tells a story I suppose.

 

Really? Are you sure of that?? It's an extremely wild speculative claim to make.

 

This report was from May 2016 so the figures will be even higher almost a year on, but more than 25,000 had been killed by then. So that leaves you to find over half a million Christians "burnt/stoned to death".

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/31/more-than-2500-refugees-and-migrants-have-died-trying-to-cross-t/

 

The report says 2500 yet you say 25000 ???

 

I hold my hand up to a "typo",,,,,,,,,still leaves you more than 50,000 Christians left to find and back up your conjecture.

[antony1969]

Bulletguy - 2017-03-20 8:06 PM

 

antony1969 - 2017-03-20 7:18 PM

 

Bulletguy - 2017-03-20 7:00 PM

 

antony1969 - 2017-03-20 6:07 PM

 

Barryd999 - 2017-03-20 5:58 PM

 

antony1969 - 2017-03-20 5:45 PM

 

If these are your Syrians Barry then i'll give it a miss if you dont mind but if your little village wants em thats fine .... http://www.westmonster.com/51-local-groups-in-molenbeek-linked-to-terrorism/

 

Oh well stuff em then. The 10 million+ refugees fleeing war zones in the middle east are all members of ISIS, clearly, that report says so so it must be true. That little lad dead on the beach in Greece was probably set to go mental with an AK at the first opportunity. Thats one less to worry about.

 

 

A hissy fit doesn't really answer anything does it ??? ... Had the dead kids parents gone to the nearest "safe" country then he wouldn't have died would he or if they hadn't heard about Merkels open invitation maybe they wouldn't have risked it ...

And just where do you call "safe"? Despite Syrian Kurds fighting IS in Syria, Turkey is openly hostile to them and been bombing them to bits in Syria. The family of Alan Kurdi were attempting to get to Greece with hopes of eventually emigrating to Canada where relatives lived.

 

For every body on the beach of a washed up migrant I could probably show you twenty Christians burnt to death or stoned to death ... Every picture tells a story I suppose.

 

Really? Are you sure of that?? It's an extremely wild speculative claim to make.

 

This report was from May 2016 so the figures will be even higher almost a year on, but more than 25,000 had been killed by then. So that leaves you to find over half a million Christians "burnt/stoned to death".

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/31/more-than-2500-refugees-and-migrants-have-died-trying-to-cross-t/

 

The report says 2500 yet you say 25000 ???

 

I hold my hand up to a "typo",,,,,,,,,still leaves you more than 50,000 Christians left to find and back up your conjecture.

 

Oh a "typo" you based almost an extra "half a million Christians" on ??? ... Nice one ... I'll ask again how many out of the 2500 dead were what we might class as legit refugees and not economic migrants ???

[Barryd999]

Actually the death toll figure is way over 2500. It was over 5000 in 2016. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/dec/23/record-migrant-death-toll-two-boats-capsize-italy-un-refugee

 

A large percentage of deaths occur between Turkey and Greece which is the main route for "genuine" refugees but there is also a large amount of deaths between Libya and Italy which could be both refugees and economic migrants. They are still people no matter what their status though. One death is one too many.

 

Roger we cannot control the current Syrian Crisis at source as its a flipping great war zone, its been torn apart. Similar in parts of Afghanistan and Iraq but dont you think we have done enough meddling there? What we can do is provide a proper joint aid program both financial and logistical (on the ground) to neighbouring countries providing we have the funds and the local agreement but we can also do our bit at home. Your right in one respect we do not want them making that journey and entering Europe Illegally and more importantly dangerously but (and its starting to happen) we need to "bring in" our fair share of legitimate vetted (as much as possible) refugees.

 

I linked earlier to an article that showed the UK has only managed 18% of what is considered by the UN as its fair share of refugees. Canada for example has taken in 248% of its fair share and Australia who I think is one of the countries you claim is so tough on this kind of thing 98%. If you missed it here is the link and graph again. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/syrian-refugees-uk-fair-share-report-a7478891.html

 

Yes Antony before you say it again, send them up here if you like, we have hundreds of miles of space up here. Plenty of room. I am sure the farmers and tourist industry will find plenty of work for them, but bring them in safely. Organisation and agreement is the key.

 

I am sure yet again nobody will read the links.

[antony1969]

Barryd999 - 2017-03-20 9:13 PM

 

Actually the death toll figure is way over 2500. It was over 5000 in 2016. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/dec/23/record-migrant-death-toll-two-boats-capsize-italy-un-refugee

 

A large percentage of deaths occur between Turkey and Greece which is the main route for "genuine" refugees but there is also a large amount of deaths between Libya and Italy which could be both refugees and economic migrants. They are still people no matter what their status though. One death is one too many.

 

Roger we cannot control the current Syrian Crisis at source as its a flipping great war zone, its been torn apart. Similar in parts of Afghanistan and Iraq but dont you think we have done enough meddling there? What we can do is provide a proper joint aid program both financial and logistical (on the ground) to neighbouring countries providing we have the funds and the local agreement but we can also do our bit at home. Your right in one respect we do not want them making that journey and entering Europe Illegally and more importantly dangerously but (and its starting to happen) we need to "bring in" our fair share of legitimate vetted (as much as possible) refugees.

 

I linked earlier to an article that showed the UK has only managed 18% of what is considered by the UN as its fair share of refugees. Canada for example has taken in 248% of its fair share and Australia who I think is one of the countries you claim is so tough on this kind of thing 98%. If you missed it here is the link and graph again. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/syrian-refugees-uk-fair-share-report-a7478891.html

 

Yes Antony before you say it again, send them up here if you like, we have hundreds of miles of space up here. Plenty of room. I am sure the farmers and tourist industry will find plenty of work for them, but bring them in safely. Organisation and agreement is the key.

 

I am sure yet again nobody will read the links.

 

Oh a Guardian link ... Hopefully when all these "refugees" come up to yours Barry they attempt to work a bit more than all those migrants in Germany have ... Looks like they've been busy with crime if nothing else ... If you ever get any hope you enjoy em

[Bulletguy]

antony1969 - 2017-03-20 8:11 PM

 

Oh a "typo" you based almost an extra "half a million Christians" on ??? ... Nice one ... I'll ask again how many out of the 2500 dead were what we might class as legit refugees and not economic migrants ???

 

Right Mr Big Mouth, i'll post it again emboldened as you aren't digesting.

 

I hold my hand up to a "typo"........still leaves you more than 50,000 Christians left to find and back up your conjecture.

 

Well......where are they?

[Bulletguy]

Barryd999 - 2017-03-20 9:13 PM

 

Actually the death toll figure is way over 2500. It was over 5000 in 2016. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/dec/23/record-migrant-death-toll-two-boats-capsize-italy-un-refugee

 

A large percentage of deaths occur between Turkey and Greece which is the main route for "genuine" refugees but there is also a large amount of deaths between Libya and Italy which could be both refugees and economic migrants. They are still people no matter what their status though. One death is one too many.

 

Roger we cannot control the current Syrian Crisis at source as its a flipping great war zone, its been torn apart. Similar in parts of Afghanistan and Iraq but dont you think we have done enough meddling there? What we can do is provide a proper joint aid program both financial and logistical (on the ground) to neighbouring countries providing we have the funds and the local agreement but we can also do our bit at home. Your right in one respect we do not want them making that journey and entering Europe Illegally and more importantly dangerously but (and its starting to happen) we need to "bring in" our fair share of legitimate vetted (as much as possible) refugees.

 

I linked earlier to an article that showed the UK has only managed 18% of what is considered by the UN as its fair share of refugees. Canada for example has taken in 248% of its fair share and Australia who I think is one of the countries you claim is so tough on this kind of thing 98%. If you missed it here is the link and graph again. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/syrian-refugees-uk-fair-share-report-a7478891.html

 

Yes Antony before you say it again, send them up here if you like, we have hundreds of miles of space up here. Plenty of room. I am sure the farmers and tourist industry will find plenty of work for them, but bring them in safely. Organisation and agreement is the key.

 

I am sure yet again nobody will read the links.

 

Unless it's a Fail link or copy of the Brexit Beano he won't accept it as factual. You may as well knock on wood.

[Guest pelmetman]

Barryd999 - 2017-03-20 10:48 AM

 

pelmetman - 2017-03-20 10:12 AM

 

Barryd999 - 2017-03-20 9:46 AM

 

I suppose this little lad was over 30 as well huh? :'( Imagine if it was one of yours and nobody wanted to help him.

 

 

If you want to blame someone Barry.......her name is Mrs Merkel, along with you woolly headed liberal idiots who encouraged them to make the journey >:-( .....

 

 

Blame someone? Well if we want to play the blame game then its a complex one but the west is one of many with blood on its hands for meddling in the middle east. I dont think you can blame Merkal for it for holding out a welcoming hand as naive perhaps as it was.

 

 

http://www.middleeasteye.net/news/two-smugglers-be-tried-drowning-syrian-refugee-toddler-1163378056

 

Perhaps you should start with the father *-) .......

 

 

 

 

[Barryd999]

antony1969 - 2017-03-20 9:22 PM

 

Barryd999 - 2017-03-20 9:13 PM

 

Actually the death toll figure is way over 2500. It was over 5000 in 2016. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/dec/23/record-migrant-death-toll-two-boats-capsize-italy-un-refugee

 

A large percentage of deaths occur between Turkey and Greece which is the main route for "genuine" refugees but there is also a large amount of deaths between Libya and Italy which could be both refugees and economic migrants. They are still people no matter what their status though. One death is one too many.

 

Roger we cannot control the current Syrian Crisis at source as its a flipping great war zone, its been torn apart. Similar in parts of Afghanistan and Iraq but dont you think we have done enough meddling there? What we can do is provide a proper joint aid program both financial and logistical (on the ground) to neighbouring countries providing we have the funds and the local agreement but we can also do our bit at home. Your right in one respect we do not want them making that journey and entering Europe Illegally and more importantly dangerously but (and its starting to happen) we need to "bring in" our fair share of legitimate vetted (as much as possible) refugees.

 

I linked earlier to an article that showed the UK has only managed 18% of what is considered by the UN as its fair share of refugees. Canada for example has taken in 248% of its fair share and Australia who I think is one of the countries you claim is so tough on this kind of thing 98%. If you missed it here is the link and graph again. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/syrian-refugees-uk-fair-share-report-a7478891.html

 

Yes Antony before you say it again, send them up here if you like, we have hundreds of miles of space up here. Plenty of room. I am sure the farmers and tourist industry will find plenty of work for them, but bring them in safely. Organisation and agreement is the key.

 

I am sure yet again nobody will read the links.

 

Oh a Guardian link ... Hopefully when all these "refugees" come up to yours Barry they attempt to work a bit more than all those migrants in Germany have ... Looks like they've been busy with crime if nothing else ... If you ever get any hope you enjoy em

 

Well the information in the Guardian article came from William Spindler, a spokesman for the UN refugee agency, UNHCR but he could be making it up for a laugh I suppose.

 

We went over the crime figures the other day. Crime is mainly committed by economic migrants who are not fleeing war zones which we all agree should not be here. Crime from actual refugees is very low.

 

My suggestion and the one that seems to be moving forward is to try and stop the flow of refugees long before they get to Europe, process them and fly in properly vetted genuine refugees around the globe, each country takes a share. That is happening but not all countries are playing ball. If you can put something like that into operation and try and stop genuine refugees getting here themselves then you can I guess take tougher stances at borders and assume those that are wandering around Europe as economic migrants and remove them (still not straight forward but better than what we have now).

 

All this takes time, co-operation and lots of money but it should be something you support as you dont want chancers and criminals coming here or into Europe, none of us do so finding a way to separate them and make refugee distribution legit has to be better than what we have now. Doing nothing or assuming its someone else's problem will just make it worse.

 

 

 

[antony1969]

Bulletguy - 2017-03-20 9:28 PM

 

antony1969 - 2017-03-20 8:11 PM

 

Oh a "typo" you based almost an extra "half a million Christians" on ??? ... Nice one ... I'll ask again how many out of the 2500 dead were what we might class as legit refugees and not economic migrants ???

 

Right Mr Big Mouth, i'll post it again emboldened as you aren't digesting.

 

I hold my hand up to a "typo"........still leaves you more than 50,000 Christians left to find and back up your conjecture.

 

Well......where are they?

 

No it doesn't ... I asked you out of the 2500 how many were legit refugees and not chancers ... Barry has been very quick many times to try to distance Syrians from the chancers so it should be the same for your death count ... Do you have the numbers ???

[Guest pelmetman]

Barryd999 - 2017-03-20 11:43 PM

 

antony1969 - 2017-03-20 9:22 PM

 

Barryd999 - 2017-03-20 9:13 PM

 

Actually the death toll figure is way over 2500. It was over 5000 in 2016. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/dec/23/record-migrant-death-toll-two-boats-capsize-italy-un-refugee

 

A large percentage of deaths occur between Turkey and Greece which is the main route for "genuine" refugees but there is also a large amount of deaths between Libya and Italy which could be both refugees and economic migrants. They are still people no matter what their status though. One death is one too many.

 

Roger we cannot control the current Syrian Crisis at source as its a flipping great war zone, its been torn apart. Similar in parts of Afghanistan and Iraq but dont you think we have done enough meddling there? What we can do is provide a proper joint aid program both financial and logistical (on the ground) to neighbouring countries providing we have the funds and the local agreement but we can also do our bit at home. Your right in one respect we do not want them making that journey and entering Europe Illegally and more importantly dangerously but (and its starting to happen) we need to "bring in" our fair share of legitimate vetted (as much as possible) refugees.

 

I linked earlier to an article that showed the UK has only managed 18% of what is considered by the UN as its fair share of refugees. Canada for example has taken in 248% of its fair share and Australia who I think is one of the countries you claim is so tough on this kind of thing 98%. If you missed it here is the link and graph again. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/syrian-refugees-uk-fair-share-report-a7478891.html

 

Yes Antony before you say it again, send them up here if you like, we have hundreds of miles of space up here. Plenty of room. I am sure the farmers and tourist industry will find plenty of work for them, but bring them in safely. Organisation and agreement is the key.

 

I am sure yet again nobody will read the links.

 

Oh a Guardian link ... Hopefully when all these "refugees" come up to yours Barry they attempt to work a bit more than all those migrants in Germany have ... Looks like they've been busy with crime if nothing else ... If you ever get any hope you enjoy em

 

Well the information in the Guardian article came from William Spindler, a spokesman for the UN refugee agency, UNHCR but he could be making it up for a laugh I suppose.

 

We went over the crime figures the other day. Crime is mainly committed by economic migrants who are not fleeing war zones which we all agree should not be here. Crime from actual refugees is very low.

 

My suggestion and the one that seems to be moving forward is to try and stop the flow of refugees long before they get to Europe, process them and fly in properly vetted genuine refugees around the globe, each country takes a share. That is happening but not all countries are playing ball. If you can put something like that into operation and try and stop genuine refugees getting here themselves then you can I guess take tougher stances at borders and assume those that are wandering around Europe as economic migrants and remove them (still not straight forward but better than what we have now).

 

All this takes time, co-operation and lots of money but it should be something you support as you dont want chancers and criminals coming here or into Europe, none of us do so finding a way to separate them and make refugee distribution legit has to be better than what we have now. Doing nothing or assuming its someone else's problem will just make it worse.

 

 

 

Whats wrong with refugees staying in refugee camps until its safe for them to return home? :-| .......Are you seriously saying Europe should re home 13.5 million Syrians? 8-) ........

 

In 2016, the United Nations (UN) identified 13.5 million Syrians requiring humanitarian assistance, of which more than 6 million are internally displaced within Syria, and over 4.8 million are refugees outside of Syria. In January 2017, UNHCR counted 4,863,684 registered refugees.

 

 

 

 

[Barryd999]

pelmetman - 2017-03-21 7:30 AM

 

Barryd999 - 2017-03-20 11:43 PM

 

antony1969 - 2017-03-20 9:22 PM

 

Barryd999 - 2017-03-20 9:13 PM

 

Actually the death toll figure is way over 2500. It was over 5000 in 2016. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/dec/23/record-migrant-death-toll-two-boats-capsize-italy-un-refugee

 

A large percentage of deaths occur between Turkey and Greece which is the main route for "genuine" refugees but there is also a large amount of deaths between Libya and Italy which could be both refugees and economic migrants. They are still people no matter what their status though. One death is one too many.

 

Roger we cannot control the current Syrian Crisis at source as its a flipping great war zone, its been torn apart. Similar in parts of Afghanistan and Iraq but dont you think we have done enough meddling there? What we can do is provide a proper joint aid program both financial and logistical (on the ground) to neighbouring countries providing we have the funds and the local agreement but we can also do our bit at home. Your right in one respect we do not want them making that journey and entering Europe Illegally and more importantly dangerously but (and its starting to happen) we need to "bring in" our fair share of legitimate vetted (as much as possible) refugees.

 

I linked earlier to an article that showed the UK has only managed 18% of what is considered by the UN as its fair share of refugees. Canada for example has taken in 248% of its fair share and Australia who I think is one of the countries you claim is so tough on this kind of thing 98%. If you missed it here is the link and graph again. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/syrian-refugees-uk-fair-share-report-a7478891.html

 

Yes Antony before you say it again, send them up here if you like, we have hundreds of miles of space up here. Plenty of room. I am sure the farmers and tourist industry will find plenty of work for them, but bring them in safely. Organisation and agreement is the key.

 

I am sure yet again nobody will read the links.

 

Oh a Guardian link ... Hopefully when all these "refugees" come up to yours Barry they attempt to work a bit more than all those migrants in Germany have ... Looks like they've been busy with crime if nothing else ... If you ever get any hope you enjoy em

 

Well the information in the Guardian article came from William Spindler, a spokesman for the UN refugee agency, UNHCR but he could be making it up for a laugh I suppose.

 

We went over the crime figures the other day. Crime is mainly committed by economic migrants who are not fleeing war zones which we all agree should not be here. Crime from actual refugees is very low.

 

My suggestion and the one that seems to be moving forward is to try and stop the flow of refugees long before they get to Europe, process them and fly in properly vetted genuine refugees around the globe, each country takes a share. That is happening but not all countries are playing ball. If you can put something like that into operation and try and stop genuine refugees getting here themselves then you can I guess take tougher stances at borders and assume those that are wandering around Europe as economic migrants and remove them (still not straight forward but better than what we have now).

 

All this takes time, co-operation and lots of money but it should be something you support as you dont want chancers and criminals coming here or into Europe, none of us do so finding a way to separate them and make refugee distribution legit has to be better than what we have now. Doing nothing or assuming its someone else's problem will just make it worse.

 

 

 

Whats wrong with refugees staying in refugee camps until its safe for them to return home? :-| .......Are you seriously saying Europe should re home 13.5 million Syrians? 8-) ........

 

In 2016, the United Nations (UN) identified 13.5 million Syrians requiring humanitarian assistance, of which more than 6 million are internally displaced within Syria, and over 4.8 million are refugees outside of Syria. In January 2017, UNHCR counted 4,863,684 registered refugees.

 

 

 

 

No Dave I am not saying Europe should re home 13.5 million Syrians. We already know that the vast majority (millions) have gone to Lebanon, Jordan and Turkey. We can help (The world not just Europe) by assisting those countries and improving conditions but we can also get better organised and the wealthy countries around the WORLD not just Europe can take legitimately and legally their fair share. As posted earlier, look at Canada and Australia. They have taken in Canada's case more than double what was suggested was their fair share and Australia about right. Some countries in Europe have refused to do anything some have bent over backwards to help.

 

If we were all pulling together and putting some effort into it and doing our fair share then the problem of refugees wandering around Europe and turning up dead whilst it wouldnt go away would see some considerable improvement and once in place it would be fair game to assume any illegals found in Europe were economic migrants and therefore not refugees as they hadnt come through the proper channels. You could then legitimately refuse them Asylum. It wont be as simple as that but its the direction we should be going. How have so many got to Canada? They clearly haven't walked there or turned up in a rubber boat. So it can work.

 

The problem is countries who adopt the "not in my back yard" approach or do the barest minimum. Trump for example has done exactly that. Some European countries are the same and the UK is not really fulfilling what it promised. You can call me a tree hugging naive lefty if you like, thats fine but actually what I am proposing may actually alleviate the issue and make the whole process safer for them and us.

 

And when the war is over those that helped the most may well get the contracts to rebuild Syria. Not only that but history proves with the likes of the Vietnam boat people that those that remained in the countries they were taken in by proved above average assets to those countries and positive economic conributers. If all the EU workers do leave after Brexit the Syrian refugees can take over their roles!. :D

[Guest pelmetman]

Barryd999 - 2017-03-21 10:34 AM

 

No Dave I am not saying Europe should re home 13.5 million Syrians. We already know that the vast majority (millions) have gone to Lebanon, Jordan and Turkey. We can help (The world not just Europe) by assisting those countries and improving conditions but we can also get better organised and the wealthy countries around the WORLD not just Europe can take legitimately and legally their fair share. As posted earlier, look at Canada and Australia. They have taken in Canada's case more than double what was suggested was their fair share and Australia about right. Some countries in Europe have refused to do anything some have bent over backwards to help.

 

If we were all pulling together and putting some effort into it and doing our fair share then the problem of refugees wandering around Europe and turning up dead whilst it wouldnt go away would see some considerable improvement and once in place it would be fair game to assume any illegals found in Europe were economic migrants and therefore not refugees as they hadnt come through the proper channels. You could then legitimately refuse them Asylum. It wont be as simple as that but its the direction we should be going. How have so many got to Canada? They clearly haven't walked there or turned up in a rubber boat. So it can work.

 

The problem is countries who adopt the "not in my back yard" approach or do the barest minimum. Trump for example has done exactly that. Some European countries are the same and the UK is not really fulfilling what it promised. You can call me a tree hugging naive lefty if you like, thats fine but actually what I am proposing may actually alleviate the issue and make the whole process safer for them and us.

 

And when the war is over those that helped the most may well get the contracts to rebuild Syria. Not only that but history proves with the likes of the Vietnam boat people that those that remained in the countries they were taken in by proved above average assets to those countries and positive economic conributers. If all the EU workers do leave after Brexit the Syrian refugees can take over their roles!. :D

 

Did you not notice what happened when Merkel invited them? 8-) ........1000's have died in the rush *-) ........

 

What do you think will happen if the EU sets up a system to repatriate refugees to the EU? ;-) ..........

 

The 20 million who are on the move in Africa will all go whoopee >:-) .......

 

.......and the death toll will be 10's of 1000's, I hope you tree huggers realise that? >:-( ........

 

 

[RogerC]

Barry quotes:

'process them and fly in properly vetted genuine refugees around the globe'.....

Now I know the loonies have completely lost it.

So where would these processing places be set up?

Most third world , war torn countries inhabitants have no identity documents so how are they processed in the vast numbers that would presumably be told where they need to go?

Lets put signs up all over the place....'Refugee processing this way.....'

Where would they be accommodated whilst waiting in this 'official' processing centre?

What medical, sanitary, feeding, clothing, etc would be provided?

How long would it take?  Of the few in UK centres processing has in some cases taken well over 2 years.

There are a million and one other things to consider in terms of sheer logistics......processing, identity documents, which country to send them to or do they get a choice because if not the loony left will start screaming 'forced removal'!!!!  Lastly and this brings about a serious number of issues of it's own......

Where do the aircraft come from to move these hundreds of thousands?

What to do with a great number of illiterate, never seen an aircraft, scared to death deportees?  In Ethopia during the 1984-5 famine relocation policy meant 600,000 were moved forcibly and a great many died on the short flight between the north of the country and Addis......I know I saw the bodies being offloaded from the AN12  aircraft at Addis.

Once resettled what happens if/when their homeland becomes safe and they want to return?  Who pays?

So the simplistic idea of 'world co-operation....lets get these people resettled somewhere safe' is the most lunatic idea yet.......but when did the 'lets save everyone brigade' ever stop to think of the practicalities and repercussions of their 'well intentioned but barmy ideas?

[Bulletguy]

antony1969 - 2017-03-21 6:13 AM

 

No it doesn't ...

Yes it does. Don't try your usual deflection trickery when unable to give a credible answer as that game wore out ages ago.

 

antony1969 - 2017-03-20 6:07 PM

 

For every body on the beach of a washed up migrant I could probably show you twenty Christians burnt to death or stoned to death ...

I asked you yesterday to address this but you failed to come up with 50,000 Christians and just more of your usual hyperbole.

 

[antony1969]

Bulletguy - 2017-03-21 2:06 PM

 

antony1969 - 2017-03-21 6:13 AM

 

No it doesn't ...

Yes it does. Don't try your usual deflection trickery when unable to give a credible answer as that game wore out ages ago.

 

antony1969 - 2017-03-20 6:07 PM

 

For every body on the beach of a washed up migrant I could probably show you twenty Christians burnt to death or stoned to death ...

I asked you yesterday to address this but you failed to come up with 50,000 Christians and just more of your usual hyperbole.

 

Give me the amount of legit refugees out of the 2500 Ive asked for with the proof and then we can work on the correct amount I have to find can't we ... No trickery or failing to address the question from me but I would like to work on facts .... Yes FACTS , look it up its in the dictionary

[Barryd999]

Dave your just either not reading my posts or you don't understand them. The whole point of organised and agreed restlement is that you make it easier for Genuine refugees (not economic migrants) to be either settled as locally as possible and agreed quotas are shipped out to designated countries. The problem with Merkals open door policy is it didn't address the problem of refugees mixed in with economic migrants making the perilous journey to get here. I don't know why you are all so against what I am suggesting (and what is being planned actually) as you want shot of economic migrants and this is one way of reducing them.

 

Roger your opinion of Refugees is from the dark ages and verges on racism but ill put it down to ignorance of the people of the middle east. You think Syrian refugees are uneducated and afraid of airplanes? Good grief! It was a developed and successful thriving middle eastern country until all this started. Most of the refugees that try to get to Europe were either wealthy or sold businesses cars and houses to get here. Most speak at least one language including English. Syria is one of the oldest civilizations in the world.

 

You could be forgiven you know wondering if some do not want a solution to this problem and that it suits their agenda for Europe to be overrun by migrants and refugees.

[Guest pelmetman]

Barryd999 - 2017-03-21 2:40 PM

 

Dave your just either not reading my posts or you don't understand them. The whole point of organised and agreed restlement is that you make it easier for Genuine refugees (not economic migrants) to be either settled as locally as possible and agreed quotas are shipped out to designated countries.

 

Which the point I and others have been trying make is........It would never work.......

 

Because those who would be in charge are the same ejits who can't tell a 30+ year old from a 16 year old *-) .......and you think they'd be able tell a genuine refugee from a migrant? (lol) (lol) (lol) ....

 

 

[Guest pelmetman]

Barryd999 - 2017-03-21 2:40 PM

 

Dave your just either not reading my posts or you don't understand them. The whole point of organised and agreed restlement is that you make it easier for Genuine refugees (not economic migrants) to be either settled as locally as possible and agreed quotas are shipped out to designated countries. The problem with Merkals open door policy is it didn't address the problem of refugees mixed in with economic migrants making the perilous journey to get here. I don't know why you are all so against what I am suggesting (and what is being planned actually) as you want shot of economic migrants and this is one way of reducing them.

 

Roger your opinion of Refugees is from the dark ages and verges on racism but ill put it down to ignorance of the people of the middle east. You think Syrian refugees are uneducated and afraid of airplanes? Good grief! It was a developed and successful thriving middle eastern country until all this started. Most of the refugees that try to get to Europe were either wealthy or sold businesses cars and houses to get here. Most speak at least one language including English. Syria is one of the oldest civilizations in the world.

 

You could be forgiven you know wondering if some do not want a solution to this problem and that it suits their agenda for Europe to be overrun by migrants and refugees.

 

Its no good just focusing on Syria Barry *-) .......there are 20 million in Africa looking for a new home......do you honestly think they won't head to the EU if they hang out the welcome sign? 8-) ......

 

 

[RogerC]

Barry...my comments are neither from the Dark Ages nor are they in any way racist.  I would be interested to know how my comments can be considered racist?

 It is you and the lovey dovey left that are exacerbating the refugee/economic migrant issue by holding out the promise of a better life than they already have in their home land (clearly war zones excepted).  My comments are not focused on Syria, which you appear to have zoomed in on to make your point.  My concern much wider and includes is all those Africans making journeys of hundreds/thousands of perilous miles to get on a boat/raft/inflatable in order to reach the promised land in Europe. Economic migrants....not genuine refugees is my concern.  Unfortunately the numbers are so great from both groups that it is occasionally almost impossible to separate one from another.

Genuine refugees need and are entitled to aid and assistance, to provide the necessary framework to enable them to live in safety....AND THEN return home once the situation become safe once more.  Genuine refugees don't traipse halfway across Europe to the country of their 'choice'.....they (according to international law) don't have that option because their travel, almost always without identity documentation, means that going beyond the country where they were deemed to be safe crossing international borders means their travel is illegal.

Once again you focus on the 'specific narrow field of view' to support your argument.  I see nothing from you or other 'lets save the world brigade' that offers a sensible solution to the problem.

I have travelled the world, seen first hand war, famine and destruction through natural events.....hurricane relief, earthquakes etc for over 35 years and I can tell you that a great number of those displaced by these events 'are not' wise in the ways of the 'modern world' much as you might like to think they are.  How do you  deal with a people that has no idea or recognition of what or how to use a toilet for example?  As unpleasant as it might seem there are those who have no idea.....once on a flight to Delhi a toilet was closed off because a passenger (flight was full of Haj travellers) used the sink to defecate in.  In Ethiopia I had a Government Agent defecate in the urinal of my aircraft....he knew no better.  Now if that is something done by those who have the wherewithal to travel or hold a government post can you imagine the issues of dealing with thousands who are even less wise in the ways of the West??

Now you clearly have a desire to help which is laudable but I would be interested to know if you have ever been to or been involved in any of the humanitarian issues the world has faced over the last 20-30 years?

I ask because you appear to be full of good intent but have no idea of the practicalities and difficulties......even impossibilities of some of the madcap schemes proposed by the 'save the world' brigade.

Lastly, looking back on your racism/ignorance comment.  When the occasion arises I often look back with fond and concerned memories of a little Ethiopian boy, about 5-6 yrs old......an orphan living on the docks/airport, actually a dirt strip runway and a few buildings I used to see a few time a week back in December 1984.  I used to give him my daily meal box off the aircraft,  I had had breakfast so needed it less than he did.  I also used to get the rest of the crew to 'donate' their meal box to people at other remote dirt strip airfields.  That little boy used to steal my pens, draw on my flying suit and be a bit of a pain at times climbing on the aircraft wheels to try and get away from his plight....but the smile he gave when he was with me and the crew...on our aircraft flightdeck having some food and a drink, scribbling on my flying suit was something I can still see all these years later.  I often wonder if he lived to be a grown man or like hundreds of thousands of others perished in that awful famine......alone and starving to death.

And you have the gall to say my comments verge on racism!!!! 

My comments are 'realist'....yours are laudable but unfortunately misguided.

[Bulletguy]

antony1969 - 2017-03-21 2:35 PM

 

Bulletguy - 2017-03-21 2:06 PM

 

antony1969 - 2017-03-21 6:13 AM

 

No it doesn't ...

Yes it does. Don't try your usual deflection trickery when unable to give a credible answer as that game wore out ages ago.

 

antony1969 - 2017-03-20 6:07 PM

 

For every body on the beach of a washed up migrant I could probably show you twenty Christians burnt to death or stoned to death ...

I asked you yesterday to address this but you failed to come up with 50,000 Christians and just more of your usual hyperbole.

 

Give me the amount of legit refugees out of the 2500 Ive asked for with the proof and then we can work on the correct amount I have to find can't we ... No trickery or failing to address the question from me but I would like to work on facts .... Yes FACTS , look it up its in the dictionary

I asked you at 7pm last night.......but all you could do was your usual trickery of responding with a question instead of answering the question i asked you, so yes....plenty of the usual Antony deflection and trickery.

 

I'm all for seeing you back up this completely unfounded claim of "twenty Christians to every migrant" as a fact.

 

You won't because you can't.

[antony1969]

Bulletguy - 2017-03-21 3:58 PM

 

antony1969 - 2017-03-21 2:35 PM

 

Bulletguy - 2017-03-21 2:06 PM

 

antony1969 - 2017-03-21 6:13 AM

 

No it doesn't ...

Yes it does. Don't try your usual deflection trickery when unable to give a credible answer as that game wore out ages ago.

 

antony1969 - 2017-03-20 6:07 PM

 

For every body on the beach of a washed up migrant I could probably show you twenty Christians burnt to death or stoned to death ...

I asked you yesterday to address this but you failed to come up with 50,000 Christians and just more of your usual hyperbole.

 

Give me the amount of legit refugees out of the 2500 Ive asked for with the proof and then we can work on the correct amount I have to find can't we ... No trickery or failing to address the question from me but I would like to work on facts .... Yes FACTS , look it up its in the dictionary

I asked you at 7pm last night.......but all you could do was your usual trickery of responding with a question instead of answering the question i asked you, so yes....plenty of the usual Antony deflection and trickery.

 

I'm all for seeing you back up this completely unfounded claim of "twenty Christians to every migrant" as a fact.

 

You won't because you can't.

 

I'll take it you can't tell me how many are legit ... Could be 2500 ... More likely to be nearer 250 or 25 ... Oh dear

[antony1969]

RogerC - 2017-03-21 3:46 PMBarry...my comments are neither from the Dark Ages nor are they in any way racist.  I would be interested to know how my comments can be considered racist?

 It is you and the lovey dovey left that are exacerbating the refugee/economic migrant issue by holding out the promise of a better life than they already have in their home land (clearly war zones excepted).  My comments are not focused on Syria, which you appear to have zoomed in on to make your point.  My concern much wider and includes is all those Africans making journeys of hundreds/thousands of perilous miles to get on a boat/raft/inflatable in order to reach the promised land in Europe. Economic migrants....not genuine refugees is my concern.  Unfortunately the numbers are so great from both groups that it is occasionally almost impossible to separate one from another.

Genuine refugees need and are entitled to aid and assistance, to provide the necessary framework to enable them to live in safety....AND THEN return home once the situation become safe once more.  Genuine refugees don't traipse halfway across Europe to the country of their 'choice'.....they (according to international law) don't have that option because their travel, almost always without identity documentation, means that going beyond the country where they were deemed to be safe crossing international borders means their travel is illegal.

Once again you focus on the 'specific narrow field of view' to support your argument.  I see nothing from you or other 'lets save the world brigade' that offers a sensible solution to the problem.

I have travelled the world, seen first hand war, famine and destruction through natural events.....hurricane relief, earthquakes etc for over 35 years and I can tell you that a great number of those displaced by these events 'are not' wise in the ways of the 'modern world' much as you might like to think they are.  How do you  deal with a people that has no idea or recognition of what or how to use a toilet for example?  As unpleasant as it might seem there are those who have no idea.....once on a flight to Delhi a toilet was closed off because a passenger (flight was full of Haj travellers) used the sink to defecate in.  In Ethiopia I had a Government Agent defecate in the urinal of my aircraft....he knew no better.  Now if that is something done by those who have the wherewithal to travel or hold a government post can you imagine the issues of dealing with thousands who are even less wise in the ways of the West??

Now you clearly have a desire to help which is laudable but I would be interested to know if you have ever been to or been involved in any of the humanitarian issues the world has faced over the last 20-30 years?

I ask because you appear to be full of good intent but have no idea of the practicalities and difficulties......even impossibilities of some of the madcap schemes proposed by the 'save the world' brigade.

Lastly, looking back on your racism/ignorance comment.  When the occasion arises I often look back with fond and concerned memories of a little Ethiopian boy, about 5-6 yrs old......an orphan living on the docks/airport, actually a dirt strip runway and a few buildings I used to see a few time a week back in December 1984.  I used to give him my daily meal box off the aircraft,  I had had breakfast so needed it less than he did.  I also used to get the rest of the crew to 'donate' their meal box to people at other remote dirt strip airfields.  That little boy used to steal my pens, draw on my flying suit and be a bit of a pain at times climbing on the aircraft wheels to try and get away from his plight....but the smile he gave when he was with me and the crew...on our aircraft flightdeck having some food and a drink, scribbling on my flying suit was something I can still see all these years later.  I often wonder if he lived to be a grown man or like hundreds of thousands of others perished in that awful famine......alone and starving to death.

And you have the gall to say my comments verge on racism!!!! 

My comments are 'realist'....yours are laudable but unfortunately misguided.

To be fair Roger we have gone about 3 days without one of the screaming pussy brigade shouting racist so we were long overdue ... I haven't heard Islamaphobe for a bit too ... It's strange when you don't hear em everyday how much you miss em ... Good post by the way

[Barryd999]

RogerC - 2017-03-21 3:46 PMBarry...my comments are neither from the Dark Ages nor are they in any way racist.  I would be interested to know how my comments can be considered racist?

 It is you and the lovey dovey left that are exacerbating the refugee/economic migrant issue by holding out the promise of a better life than they already have in their home land (clearly war zones excepted).  My comments are not focused on Syria, which you appear to have zoomed in on to make your point.  My concern much wider and includes is all those Africans making journeys of hundreds/thousands of perilous miles to get on a boat/raft/inflatable in order to reach the promised land in Europe. Economic migrants....not genuine refugees is my concern.  Unfortunately the numbers are so great from both groups that it is occasionally almost impossible to separate one from another.

Genuine refugees need and are entitled to aid and assistance, to provide the necessary framework to enable them to live in safety....AND THEN return home once the situation become safe once more.  Genuine refugees don't traipse halfway across Europe to the country of their 'choice'.....they (according to international law) don't have that option because their travel, almost always without identity documentation, means that going beyond the country where they were deemed to be safe crossing international borders means their travel is illegal.

Once again you focus on the 'specific narrow field of view' to support your argument.  I see nothing from you or other 'lets save the world brigade' that offers a sensible solution to the problem.

I have travelled the world, seen first hand war, famine and destruction through natural events.....hurricane relief, earthquakes etc for over 35 years and I can tell you that a great number of those displaced by these events 'are not' wise in the ways of the 'modern world' much as you might like to think they are.  How do you  deal with a people that has no idea or recognition of what or how to use a toilet for example?  As unpleasant as it might seem there are those who have no idea.....once on a flight to Delhi a toilet was closed off because a passenger (flight was full of Haj travellers) used the sink to defecate in.  In Ethiopia I had a Government Agent defecate in the urinal of my aircraft....he knew no better.  Now if that is something done by those who have the wherewithal to travel or hold a government post can you imagine the issues of dealing with thousands who are even less wise in the ways of the West??

Now you clearly have a desire to help which is laudable but I would be interested to know if you have ever been to or been involved in any of the humanitarian issues the world has faced over the last 20-30 years?

I ask because you appear to be full of good intent but have no idea of the practicalities and difficulties......even impossibilities of some of the madcap schemes proposed by the 'save the world' brigade.

Lastly, looking back on your racism/ignorance comment.  When the occasion arises I often look back with fond and concerned memories of a little Ethiopian boy, about 5-6 yrs old......an orphan living on the docks/airport, actually a dirt strip runway and a few buildings I used to see a few time a week back in December 1984.  I used to give him my daily meal box off the aircraft,  I had had breakfast so needed it less than he did.  I also used to get the rest of the crew to 'donate' their meal box to people at other remote dirt strip airfields.  That little boy used to steal my pens, draw on my flying suit and be a bit of a pain at times climbing on the aircraft wheels to try and get away from his plight....but the smile he gave when he was with me and the crew...on our aircraft flightdeck having some food and a drink, scribbling on my flying suit was something I can still see all these years later.  I often wonder if he lived to be a grown man or like hundreds of thousands of others perished in that awful famine......alone and starving to death.

And you have the gall to say my comments verge on racism!!!! 

My comments are 'realist'....yours are laudable but unfortunately misguided.

Firstly lets clear one thing up seeing as you "New order" chappies like to label everyone to the left of you as Lovey Dovey loony lefties etc. Ive voted Tory all my life, have a corporate PLC background initially, made a sh1t load of a cash as an independent business man, packed most of it in and bought a motorhome. I will never vote for them again as they are a disgrace. I was a proper Thatchers little yuppie sh1t. (sorry about the swear words again). Ive seen the error of my ways. No I dont now live in a Wigwam.You dont come across as stupid but your clearly not reading my posts properly or any of the links like this excellent one from the economist which I will post again. http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21690028-european-problem-demands-common-coherent-eu-policy-let-refugees-regulateI have focused on Syria because that is where the majority of Refugees are heading from but it applies to Iraq and Afghanistan or any of the countries where genuine refugees are coming from. I am in total agreement with you and the others on here that we do not want economic migrants from North Africa or wherever coming to Europe. I and whoever wrote that economist article (Which I assume nobody has bothered to read) are trying to put forward solutions to separate and organise world wide solutions for genuine refugees. You and the rest of the New Order mob have offered nothing other than saying its not our problem. Your comments regarding refugees being afraid of planes and ignorant were very sweeping. The people from the countries I am talking about are just as educated as you and I. I found it offensive. I said verging on racist. I dont think you are a racist but your views are out of date IMO.Families, children and young adults that are making their way to Europe and risking everything are doing that because the system (For them) nearer to home is not working for them. Its out of the frying pan into the fire. Nobody is going to risk everything and spend every last penny they have for a place on a rubber boat where they stand a 50/50 chance of drowning if its hunky dory in the place they are leaving are they? I dont want them to traipse across Turkey and pay these Smuggler scumbags a fortune for a leaky boat either but in order to stop that we need to assist these transit countries further and agree on quotas. Look at Canadas policy who have taken a huge amount of Refugees. A shining example. http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/refugees/canada.asp Without doubt if the rest of the world followed that example the problem would be much on the way to a resolution.I am honestly starting to believe that it suits the agenda of the far right in Europe for it all to go horribly wrong. After all its working. The migrant crisis is threatening to tear Europe apart and largely responsible for the rise of the far right. I bet they want it to continue, it suits their agenda.I am not hearing any solutions whatsoever from you or the rest of the mob, just the usual lefty loony tree hugger stuff.

[Guest pelmetman]

Barryd999 - 2017-03-21 4:38 PM

 

I am not hearing any solutions whatsoever from you or the rest of the mob, just the usual lefty loony tree hugger stuff.

 

 

Meanwhile in the real world Barry ;-) .......Seeing all the problems migrants are currently causing in the EU, what chance do you tree huggers have of convincing the EU public to accept more refugee's ? >:-) .....