Brexit Brinkmanship?

[Guest pelmetman]

Brian Kirby - 2017-09-08 6:22 PM

 

RogerC - 2017-09-08 5:18 PM......................Which minority is that Brian?

The 37% Roger.

 

So just 37% are sore losers :-S .........

 

You'd think they'd be over 50% considering their non stop whinging *-) ......

 

Mind you that 37% will pale into insignificance if you manage to pervert the wishes of the UK majority >:-( ......Expect uncivil war >:-) .......

[RogerC]

Brian Kirby - 2017-09-08 6:22 PM

RogerC - 2017-09-08 5:18 PM......................Which minority is that Brian?

The 37% Roger.

Selective statistics Brian.....37%?  I'm sure it was 52% leave and 48% remain.

[antony1969]

The Peoples March For Europe takes place today in London ... Ye really ... Sore wets still unable to accept democracy ... How sad

[Barryd999]

antony1969 - 2017-09-09 7:29 AM

 

The Peoples March For Europe takes place today in London ... Ye really ... Sore wets still unable to accept democracy ... How sad

 

Oooh Goody! will there be dancing, face painting and singing Blowin in the Wind (My version I hope)? :D

 

Lets be honest though Antony. There was nothing Democratic about the referendum. It was a demonstration of our darkest hour as far as democracy was concerned. And before someone chips in stating lies were told on both side, no they werent. I can give you list of whoppers from Vote leave, Farage and UKIP etc. Shocking.

 

Then you take into account as mentioned only 37% of the electorate voted out and then now add into that mix that it seems only a small minority of that percentage (rich motorhomers and swivel eyed Tory party members) want a hard Brexit which will cost us dearly is it still the will of the people? Nope. Its the will of the few and we will see that if it happens.

 

Go ahead and campaign and cheer Brexit on but lets not pretend what your fighting for is any more Democratic or fair than those people marching today who want something different.

[antony1969]

Barryd999 - 2017-09-09 8:05 AM

 

antony1969 - 2017-09-09 7:29 AM

 

The Peoples March For Europe takes place today in London ... Ye really ... Sore wets still unable to accept democracy ... How sad

 

Oooh Goody! will there be dancing, face painting and singing Blowin in the Wind (My version I hope)? :D

 

Lets be honest though Antony. There was nothing Democratic about the referendum. It was a demonstration of our darkest hour as far as democracy was concerned. And before someone chips in stating lies were told on both side, no they werent. I can give you list of whoppers from Vote leave, Farage and UKIP etc. Shocking.

 

Then you take into account as mentioned only 37% of the electorate voted out and then now add into that mix that it seems only a small minority of that percentage (rich motorhomers and swivel eyed Tory party members) want a hard Brexit which will cost us dearly is it still the will of the people? Nope. Its the will of the few and we will see that if it happens.

 

Go ahead and campaign and cheer Brexit on but lets not pretend what your fighting for is any more Democratic or fair than those people marching today who want something different.

 

Yes thats right Mark Carney didn't apologise and admit that his gloomy forecast before the vote was totally wrong and Mr Osbournes threat of an emergency budget the day after the result because we were going to cave in proved utter cods ... Accept that fibs and exaggerations were made on both sides ... You say leave voters fell for the leave lies and voted that way because of them well I say you and many others fell for the remain lies and voted that way because of those ... You can't have it all ways

[RogerC]

Barryd999 - 2017-09-09 8:05 AM

antony1969 - 2017-09-09 7:29 AMThe Peoples March For Europe takes place today in London ... Ye really ... Sore wets still unable to accept democracy ... How sad

Oooh Goody! will there be dancing, face painting and singing Blowin in the Wind (My version I hope)? :DLets be honest though Antony. There was nothing Democratic about the referendum. It was a demonstration of our darkest hour as far as democracy was concerned. And before someone chips in stating lies were told on both side, no they werent. I can give you list of whoppers from Vote leave, Farage and UKIP etc. Shocking.Then you take into account as mentioned only 37% of the electorate voted out and then now add into that mix that it seems only a small minority of that percentage (rich motorhomers and swivel eyed Tory party members) want a hard Brexit which will cost us dearly is it still the will of the people? Nope. Its the will of the few and we will see that if it happens.Go ahead and campaign and cheer Brexit on but lets not pretend what your fighting for is any more Democratic or fair than those people marching today who want something different.

Play with the figures however you want in order to illustrate your point which quite frankly is immaterial as it does not affect or indeed reflect the result of the referendum.  Only one set of figures matters and that is 52% OUT......48% IN.  Last time I looked 52% to 48% is a majority........and remember Brian did say in a previous thread that the English language is so exacting....precise (or words to that effect) so any other interpretation or spin is merely a distortion of the truth and conveys nothing more than 'lies and falsehoods' which is exactly what you re-moaners are whining on about influencing the voters.   Pot-Kettle?

[Brian Kirby]

RogerC - 2017-09-08 9:00 PM

Brian Kirby - 2017-09-08 6:22 PM

RogerC - 2017-09-08 5:18 PM......................Which minority is that Brian?

The 37% Roger.

Selective statistics Brian.....37%?  I'm sure it was 52% leave and 48% remain.

But not in relationship to the claim, which is what I was quoting, that "the people" had decided. That 37% is merely the percentage of the electorate who voted leave. As I said above, 35% voted remain, and 28% did not vote, so who knows what they want? It's quite simple. If 28% of the electorate didn't vote, and no-one knows how that might have voted had they done so, it cannot be claimed that "the people's" opinion is known. The claim is dishonest as, in the absence of facts, it is merely seeking to reinforce the relatively weak position of the leavers.

[antony1969]

Brian been in London today ... Go girl ! ...

[RogerC]

Brian Kirby - 2017-09-09 7:00 PM

RogerC - 2017-09-08 9:00 PM

Brian Kirby - 2017-09-08 6:22 PM

RogerC - 2017-09-08 5:18 PM......................Which minority is that Brian?

The 37% Roger.

Selective statistics Brian.....37%?  I'm sure it was 52% leave and 48% remain.

But not in relationship to the claim, which is what I was quoting, that "the people" had decided. That 37% is merely the percentage of the electorate who voted leave. As I said above, 35% voted remain, and 28% did not vote, so who knows what they want? It's quite simple. If 28% of the electorate didn't vote, and no-one knows how that might have voted had they done so, it cannot be claimed that "the people's" opinion is known. The claim is dishonest as, in the absence of facts, it is merely seeking to reinforce the relatively weak position of the leavers.

The claim is not in the slightest dishonest.  Those registered to vote 'all' had the same opportunity to add their one vote influence to the outcome.  That a great number chose apathy instead of exercising their democratic right is an irrelevance.  Agreed 28% didn't bother to vote which in my book makes their 'opinion' an irrelevance to the outcome of the referendum.  They couldn't be bothered to vote ergo 'no voice' in the 'after ballot' wash up.

The peoples opinion 'is' known.....52% out.....48% remain.....Majority OUT.

 Or another way as you seem hell bent on 'spin' is 37% of those eligible to vote said 'out' whilst 35% of those eligible to vote said 'in'.......still a majority OUT vote in my book.  28% DID NOT VOTE due to apathy, genuine disinterest, confusion etc etc (who knows?) and  I'm of the opinion that 'apathy, genuine disinterest, confusion etc etc' doesn't count as a vote no matter how you like to twist the facts.

[Barryd999]

RogerC - 2017-09-09 2:30 PM

Barryd999 - 2017-09-09 8:05 AM

antony1969 - 2017-09-09 7:29 AMThe Peoples March For Europe takes place today in London ... Ye really ... Sore wets still unable to accept democracy ... How sad

Oooh Goody! will there be dancing, face painting and singing Blowin in the Wind (My version I hope)? :DLets be honest though Antony. There was nothing Democratic about the referendum. It was a demonstration of our darkest hour as far as democracy was concerned. And before someone chips in stating lies were told on both side, no they werent. I can give you list of whoppers from Vote leave, Farage and UKIP etc. Shocking.Then you take into account as mentioned only 37% of the electorate voted out and then now add into that mix that it seems only a small minority of that percentage (rich motorhomers and swivel eyed Tory party members) want a hard Brexit which will cost us dearly is it still the will of the people? Nope. Its the will of the few and we will see that if it happens.Go ahead and campaign and cheer Brexit on but lets not pretend what your fighting for is any more Democratic or fair than those people marching today who want something different.

Play with the figures however you want in order to illustrate your point which quite frankly is immaterial as it does not affect or indeed reflect the result of the referendum.  Only one set of figures matters and that is 52% OUT......48% IN.  Last time I looked 52% to 48% is a majority........and remember Brian did say in a previous thread that the English language is so exacting....precise (or words to that effect) so any other interpretation or spin is merely a distortion of the truth and conveys nothing more than 'lies and falsehoods' which is exactly what you re-moaners are whining on about influencing the voters.   Pot-Kettle?

Yes but that was then and it is my firm belief that opinions have changed and as I say above I reckon its only a small minority that want the kind of Brexit most of you leavers on here are advocating if indeed they want any Brexit at all.Have a look at this. http://www.sunderlandecho.com/news/brexit-one-year-on-has-sunderland-changed-its-mind-1-8611384Sunderland, Brexit central. First in with their votes having swallowed the "Vote Leave" Guff. 61% leave to 38% Remain now the Echo reckons 63% remain, 37% leave. Which ever way you "play with the figures" its a massive swing by the working class which backs up my point. Nobody but selfish rich motorhomers and Colonel Blimps want a hard Brexit anymore.The march today will be one of many I believe as people are now waking up to the reality of what is about to happen. I think either a second referendum or a vote on the final deal is the only democratic way. each year it goes on of course 750000 new young voters are eligible to vote and a similar amount of codgers will have croaked. Fancy your chances in referendum 2? :D

[RogerC]

Barryd999 - 2017-09-09 11:05 PM

RogerC - 2017-09-09 2:30 PM

Barryd999 - 2017-09-09 8:05 AM

antony1969 - 2017-09-09 7:29 AMThe Peoples March For Europe takes place today in London ... Ye really ... Sore wets still unable to accept democracy ... How sad

Oooh Goody! will there be dancing, face painting and singing Blowin in the Wind (My version I hope)? :DLets be honest though Antony. There was nothing Democratic about the referendum. It was a demonstration of our darkest hour as far as democracy was concerned. And before someone chips in stating lies were told on both side, no they werent. I can give you list of whoppers from Vote leave, Farage and UKIP etc. Shocking.Then you take into account as mentioned only 37% of the electorate voted out and then now add into that mix that it seems only a small minority of that percentage (rich motorhomers and swivel eyed Tory party members) want a hard Brexit which will cost us dearly is it still the will of the people? Nope. Its the will of the few and we will see that if it happens.Go ahead and campaign and cheer Brexit on but lets not pretend what your fighting for is any more Democratic or fair than those people marching today who want something different.

Play with the figures however you want in order to illustrate your point which quite frankly is immaterial as it does not affect or indeed reflect the result of the referendum.  Only one set of figures matters and that is 52% OUT......48% IN.  Last time I looked 52% to 48% is a majority........and remember Brian did say in a previous thread that the English language is so exacting....precise (or words to that effect) so any other interpretation or spin is merely a distortion of the truth and conveys nothing more than 'lies and falsehoods' which is exactly what you re-moaners are whining on about influencing the voters.   Pot-Kettle?

Yes but that was then and it is my firm belief that opinions have changed and as I say above I reckon its only a small minority that want the kind of Brexit most of you leavers on here are advocating if indeed they want any Brexit at all.Have a look at this. http://www.sunderlandecho.com/news/brexit-one-year-on-has-sunderland-changed-its-mind-1-8611384Sunderland, Brexit central. First in with their votes having swallowed the "Vote Leave" Guff. 61% leave to 38% Remain now the Echo reckons 63% remain, 37% leave. Which ever way you "play with the figures" its a massive swing by the working class which backs up my point. Nobody but selfish rich motorhomers and Colonel Blimps want a hard Brexit anymore.The march today will be one of many I believe as people are now waking up to the reality of what is about to happen. I think either a second referendum or a vote on the final deal is the only democratic way. each year it goes on of course 750000 new young voters are eligible to vote and a similar amount of codgers will have croaked. Fancy your chances in referendum 2? :D

Interesting that Ireland was lambasted for holding referendum after referendum until the government/EU control Meisters got the result they wanted and now the remainers such as yourself are advocating....nay demanding the same thing.  Democracy (our style) isn't by any means perfect but if there is a second ballot because the 'apathetic' element in society has at last woken up then it is well and truly dead.  Having the 'couldn't be bothered' element of society now sitting up and bleating because they don't like the way things turned out well tough luck I say.  We don't take notice of the apathetic in any other election or ballot box result so I see no reason why the democratic process should be bastardised in this case because they are dissatisfied with the outcome. 

[antony1969]

Barryd999 - 2017-09-09 11:05 PM

RogerC - 2017-09-09 2:30 PM

Barryd999 - 2017-09-09 8:05 AM

antony1969 - 2017-09-09 7:29 AMThe Peoples March For Europe takes place today in London ... Ye really ... Sore wets still unable to accept democracy ... How sad

Oooh Goody! will there be dancing, face painting and singing Blowin in the Wind (My version I hope)? :DLets be honest though Antony. There was nothing Democratic about the referendum. It was a demonstration of our darkest hour as far as democracy was concerned. And before someone chips in stating lies were told on both side, no they werent. I can give you list of whoppers from Vote leave, Farage and UKIP etc. Shocking.Then you take into account as mentioned only 37% of the electorate voted out and then now add into that mix that it seems only a small minority of that percentage (rich motorhomers and swivel eyed Tory party members) want a hard Brexit which will cost us dearly is it still the will of the people? Nope. Its the will of the few and we will see that if it happens.Go ahead and campaign and cheer Brexit on but lets not pretend what your fighting for is any more Democratic or fair than those people marching today who want something different.

Play with the figures however you want in order to illustrate your point which quite frankly is immaterial as it does not affect or indeed reflect the result of the referendum.  Only one set of figures matters and that is 52% OUT......48% IN.  Last time I looked 52% to 48% is a majority........and remember Brian did say in a previous thread that the English language is so exacting....precise (or words to that effect) so any other interpretation or spin is merely a distortion of the truth and conveys nothing more than 'lies and falsehoods' which is exactly what you re-moaners are whining on about influencing the voters.   Pot-Kettle?

Yes but that was then and it is my firm belief that opinions have changed and as I say above I reckon its only a small minority that want the kind of Brexit most of you leavers on here are advocating if indeed they want any Brexit at all.Have a look at this. http://www.sunderlandecho.com/news/brexit-one-year-on-has-sunderland-changed-its-mind-1-8611384Sunderland, Brexit central. First in with their votes having swallowed the "Vote Leave" Guff. 61% leave to 38% Remain now the Echo reckons 63% remain, 37% leave. Which ever way you "play with the figures" its a massive swing by the working class which backs up my point. Nobody but selfish rich motorhomers and Colonel Blimps want a hard Brexit anymore.The march today will be one of many I believe as people are now waking up to the reality of what is about to happen. I think either a second referendum or a vote on the final deal is the only democratic way. each year it goes on of course 750000 new young voters are eligible to vote and a similar amount of codgers will have croaked. Fancy your chances in referendum 2? :D

An on line poll ? ... We can all trust polls can't we ? ... "codgers will have croaked" and with it all the vast life experience and knowledge gone replaced by naive , wet behind the ears young , the same young that just voted for a terrorist sympathiser and huge liar regarding student loan fees to them ... Back to the untruths again that you keep bleating on about I suppose

[Barryd999]

But Antony and Roger democracy was dealt a death blow in June 2016 and the run up to that by Vote Leave and UKIP. Ok so Carney and a few others made some inaccurate predictions but thats what they were, predictions not blatant lies. People in Sunderland (An area I spent years working in and around) swallowed that and voted for change. Of course they did. Its a Sh!t hole and anything that involves sticking it to the man or churchillesqe speeches promising them a better life was bound to be an easy sell. Unlike rich motorhomers and wealthy Swivel eyed Tory leaders they cant afford to be worse off and are starting to see that now. It was the same in the Tyne Tees region some time ago now where Bregret was rife once the penny dropped.

 

Even our glorious leaders can see the Emperors clothes for what they are but are too weak and concerned with self preservation to do anything about it. It took an independent woman with real balls to bring them to heal so that Parliament got a vote on the Brexit FFS!

 

What a shambles our Democracy is in. In another year I imagine you will be hard pressed to find even a tiny minority that still want to go jump over the cliff so what then? Because it was marginally the will of the people all that time ago even though you know its going to be a disaster your still going to jump? You couldnt make it up.

 

 

 

 

[antony1969]

Barryd999 - 2017-09-10 8:42 AM

 

But Antony and Roger democracy was dealt a death blow in June 2016 and the run up to that by Vote Leave and UKIP. Ok so Carney and a few others made some inaccurate predictions but thats what they were, predictions not blatant lies. People in Sunderland (An area I spent years working in and around) swallowed that and voted for change. Of course they did. Its a Sh!t hole and anything that involves sticking it to the man or churchillesqe speeches promising them a better life was bound to be an easy sell. Unlike rich motorhomers and wealthy Swivel eyed Tory leaders they cant afford to be worse off and are starting to see that now. It was the same in the Tyne Tees region some time ago now where Bregret was rife once the penny dropped.

 

Even our glorious leaders can see the Emperors clothes for what they are but are too weak and concerned with self preservation to do anything about it. It took an independent woman with real balls to bring them to heal so that Parliament got a vote on the Brexit FFS!

 

What a shambles our Democracy is in. In another year I imagine you will be hard pressed to find even a tiny minority that still want to go jump over the cliff so what then? Because it was marginally the will of the people all that time ago even though you know its going to be a disaster your still going to jump? You couldnt make it up.

 

 

 

 

Remain untruths were "predictions" which don't forget included the most powerful man in the worlds "back of the queue" line while Leave untruths were lies ? ... If your at a point where you refuse to acknowledge that untruths were told on both sides ( as in all elections ) then I don't see how your views on the run up to Brexit can really be taken seriously Barry , unless of course as you've previously hinted at that Remain voters far superior intelligence allowed them to see through the tosh while us thickety uneducated got dizzy and fell for those nasty lies by that that nasty Nigel ?

[Tracker]

All this delving into the past is pointless - we are where we are and no amount of name calling, figure quoting or anything else is going to alter that.

 

So come on all you experts, why not talk sensibly without name calling, about where the UK goes from the here and now?

 

But then again that is so hypothetical that not even those directly involved know how it will pan out so how can we expect the resident forum experts to second guess the unknown whims of political parties and the tsunami that wants to sweep all before it known as the EU beaurocracy?

[RogerC]

Tracker - 2017-09-10 10:48 AMAll this delving into the past is pointless - we are where we are and no amount of name calling, figure quoting or anything else is going to alter that.So come on all you experts, why not talk sensibly without name calling, about where the UK goes from the here and now?But then again that is so hypothetical that not even those directly involved know how it will pan out so how can we expect the resident forum experts to second guess the unknown whims of political parties and the tsunami that wants to sweep all before it known as the EU beaurocracy?

...............because they have the magic all seeing 'Brexiteers crystal ball'.  :-)

[Brian Kirby]

RogerC - 2017-09-09 9:42 PM....................The claim is not in the slightest dishonest.  Those registered to vote 'all' had the same opportunity to add their one vote influence to the outcome.  That a great number chose apathy instead of exercising their democratic right is an irrelevance.  Agreed 28% didn't bother to vote which in my book makes their 'opinion' an irrelevance to the outcome of the referendum.  They couldn't be bothered to vote ergo 'no voice' in the 'after ballot' wash up. The peoples opinion 'is' known.....52% out.....48% remain.....Majority OUT. Or another way as you seem hell bent on 'spin' is 37% of those eligible to vote said 'out' whilst 35% of those eligible to vote said 'in'.......still a majority OUT vote in my book.  28% DID NOT VOTE due to apathy, genuine disinterest, confusion etc etc (who knows?) and  I'm of the opinion that 'apathy, genuine disinterest, confusion etc etc' doesn't count as a vote no matter how you like to twist the facts.

No facts twisted by me, no "spin", no alternative facts, no false news, Roger - just the straight, unvarnished, though apparently inconvenient, facts. You allege apathy on the part of the 28%, presumably because it ignores other possibilities that might cast a shadow over the claimed clarity of the outcome. However, as you say above, who knows?

 

What I am arguing is that the claim that "the people" (which must logically include all of us, not just the electorate), have expressed their preference, is intellectually and mathematically, dishonest.

 

I am not contesting the result of the referendum, just that is being wildly misrepresented. In truth, it is an insecure result on a far reaching binary issue that will affect "the people". That you are reluctant to concede even that, merely confirms my thesis.

[Tracker]

With respect Brian, what you seem to present again and again is your version of reality.

 

The fact that 28% of the UK population decided not to vote is not the point at all.

 

They all had the opportunity to vote as it was very well publicised and that 28% chose not to exercise that opportunity is the point.

 

Nobody knows how that extra 28% would have affected the outcome had they chosen to vote and we will never know if for no other reason that so many people change their views to suit the media hype of the day.

 

That is the way democracy works over many years and sometimes we like the outcome and sometimes we don't and one can always find ways to support our own views but the plain and simple truth is that over one million more people voted out than voted in and those who did not vote gave up their right to have their opinion included and by so doing became irrelevant in the result.

 

So I say again, forget the past, we are where we are, for crying out loud, lets move forward and get out of the 'Groudhog day' syndrome of regurgitating the past.

 

No offence meant to you personally Brian!!

[Barryd999]

I don't think you can avoid bringing up the past when leavers keep banging on about it being democratic etc and the will of the people when in fact as said it was a disgrace to democracy. If you ask me some pollys should be held to account for that otherwise it will go on getting worse if they can just lie their arses off and get away with it. Sorry Antony but if an ex American presidents vague threats is the best you can do to recall remain lies then I rest my case.

 

That said Rich is partly right in that we are where we are and whilst I don't think we can or ever will just brush aside the disgraceful performance that happened in the name of democracy we do need to look ahead which is why it's very important that those in power do indeed listen to and respect the will of the people. Brexiteers will of course agree as it was their mantra until oddly around the time of the election. I and many others do not think it is the will of the people anymore and certainly not a hard Brexit. That must be clear to everyone now. I think the campaign now should be to put pressure onto the government to recognise that and if they are too weak to acknowledge that fact then replace them with one that will.

[Brian Kirby]

Tracker - 2017-09-10 1:04 PM.......................

1 Nobody knows how that extra 28% would have affected the outcome had they chosen to vote and we will never know if for no other reason that so many people change their views to suit the media hype of the day.

 

2 That is the way democracy works over many years and sometimes we like the outcome and sometimes we don't and one can always find ways to support our own views but the plain and simple truth is that over one million more people voted out than voted in and those who did not vote gave up their right to have their opinion included and by so doing became irrelevant in the result.

 

3 So I say again, forget the past, we are where we are, for crying out loud, lets move forward and get out of the 'Groudhog day' syndrome of regurgitating the past.

 

4 No offence meant to you personally Brian!!

4 No offence taken, Rich. :-)

 

3 But, our present is made of all our pasts, and in this case our future will be made by this recently past event. The fat lady has not yet sung! (With suitable apologies etc.) :-)

 

2 Again but, it is not the way our democracy works. In our democracy we elect MPs, and thence governments, to make the decisions. This farce was not the work of our democracy, but of a form of direct democracy. The result has been a split country, and a dilemma.

 

1 Which, as I keep saying, makes it questionable to claim on their behalf that they would have voted in the same proportions as those who did. As you reasonably say, no-one knows, so it is dishonest to claim that the result reflects the will of the people. Again I say, the vote divides the electorate approximately into thirds, those for out, those for remain, and those whose opinion remains unknown.

[antony1969]

Barryd999 - 2017-09-10 3:55 PM

 

I don't think you can avoid bringing up the past when leavers keep banging on about it being democratic etc and the will of the people when in fact as said it was a disgrace to democracy. If you ask me some pollys should be held to account for that otherwise it will go on getting worse if they can just lie their arses off and get away with it. Sorry Antony but if an ex American presidents vague threats is the best you can do to recall remain lies then I rest my case.

 

That said Rich is partly right in that we are where we are and whilst I don't think we can or ever will just brush aside the disgraceful performance that happened in the name of democracy we do need to look ahead which is why it's very important that those in power do indeed listen to and respect the will of the people. Brexiteers will of course agree as it was their mantra until oddly around the time of the election. I and many others do not think it is the will of the people anymore and certainly not a hard Brexit. That must be clear to everyone now. I think the campaign now should be to put pressure onto the government to recognise that and if they are too weak to acknowledge that fact then replace them with one that will.

 

Eh ... The most powerful person in the world at that moment says Britain would be at the back of the queue for trade deals attempting to put fear into folk thinking we'd be financially crippled and you think thats OK and you rest your case ... Fair enough Barry , doesn't surprise me at all

[RogerC]

Brian Kirby - 2017-09-10 12:48 PM

RogerC - 2017-09-09 9:42 PM....................The claim is not in the slightest dishonest.  Those registered to vote 'all' had the same opportunity to add their one vote influence to the outcome.  That a great number chose apathy instead of exercising their democratic right is an irrelevance.  Agreed 28% didn't bother to vote which in my book makes their 'opinion' an irrelevance to the outcome of the referendum.  They couldn't be bothered to vote ergo 'no voice' in the 'after ballot' wash up. The peoples opinion 'is' known.....52% out.....48% remain.....Majority OUT. Or another way as you seem hell bent on 'spin' is 37% of those eligible to vote said 'out' whilst 35% of those eligible to vote said 'in'.......still a majority OUT vote in my book.  28% DID NOT VOTE due to apathy, genuine disinterest, confusion etc etc (who knows?) and  I'm of the opinion that 'apathy, genuine disinterest, confusion etc etc' doesn't count as a vote no matter how you like to twist the facts.

No facts twisted by me, no "spin", no alternative facts, no false news, Roger - just the straight, unvarnished, though apparently inconvenient, facts. You allege apathy on the part of the 28%, presumably because it ignores other possibilities that might cast a shadow over the claimed clarity of the outcome. However, as you say above, who knows? What I am arguing is that the claim that "the people" (which must logically include all of us, not just the electorate), have expressed their preference, is intellectually and mathematically, dishonest. I am not contesting the result of the referendum, just that is being wildly misrepresented. In truth, it is an insecure result on a far reaching binary issue that will affect "the people". That you are reluctant to concede even that, merely confirms my thesis.

Brian your 'spin' is almost up their with Alastair Campbell.

It has been pointed out so many times it seems some will not accept the outcome of a 'democratic' process and chose to question the outcome because of a comment they choose to question .....pedantry maybe?  The statement that the 'people have spoken' is democratically and factually true.  No one has said the 'people' as in the whole of the adult population of the country because as we all know, or should know, certain elements of society are banned from voting.  So add those to the non voting sector and you have the number of those who either cannot 'speak' at the ballot box and those who 'did not' speak at the ballot box.  Ergo the non voters 'did not democratically speak'.

Why must your logic include those non voters?  Surely those who chose not to/were disbarred from/did not vote for whatever reason relinquish their democratic voice from the outcome of said ballot.  There is nothing intellectually or mathematically dishonest about it unless you wish to apply your logic regarding non voting but eligible to vote voters to each and every ballot?  Don't forget to include spoiled papers, because they have a more relevant effect on the outcome than those who never venture to place their 'X'.  Sorry Brian but the bottom line is you're appearing to be 'spinning' it ala Campbell and just plain wrong.

P.S.  My alleged apathy comment was expanded on later on in my post therefore your reply is an example of 'spin' as you clearly read the 'expansion' element of my reply and chose to take one word in isolation.  The expansion, as I am sure you were well aware of at the time of writing was:

 "due to apathy, genuine disinterest, confusion etc etc (who knows?)".

[Barryd999]

antony1969 - 2017-09-10 7:54 PM

 

Barryd999 - 2017-09-10 3:55 PM

 

I don't think you can avoid bringing up the past when leavers keep banging on about it being democratic etc and the will of the people when in fact as said it was a disgrace to democracy. If you ask me some pollys should be held to account for that otherwise it will go on getting worse if they can just lie their arses off and get away with it. Sorry Antony but if an ex American presidents vague threats is the best you can do to recall remain lies then I rest my case.

 

That said Rich is partly right in that we are where we are and whilst I don't think we can or ever will just brush aside the disgraceful performance that happened in the name of democracy we do need to look ahead which is why it's very important that those in power do indeed listen to and respect the will of the people. Brexiteers will of course agree as it was their mantra until oddly around the time of the election. I and many others do not think it is the will of the people anymore and certainly not a hard Brexit. That must be clear to everyone now. I think the campaign now should be to put pressure onto the government to recognise that and if they are too weak to acknowledge that fact then replace them with one that will.

 

Eh ... The most powerful person in the world at that moment says Britain would be at the back of the queue for trade deals attempting to put fear into folk thinking we'd be financially crippled and you think thats OK and you rest your case ... Fair enough Barry , doesn't surprise me at all

 

You know what my point was Antony and all you can come up with is what some ex President of another country says. How can he be part of the "Vote Leave" Game? He said that purely because of US interests not as part of some Vote Remain stitch up and you know it. Must try harder! :-D

 

Dont bother though as there isnt a single lie you can put forward from "Remain" just the odd bit of speculation and predictions some of which are already coming true.

 

As Rich says though. Lets look forward not backward and see how we can get out of this mess. :D

[Bulletguy]

Barryd999 - 2017-09-10 10:57 PM

 

antony1969 - 2017-09-10 7:54 PM

 

Barryd999 - 2017-09-10 3:55 PM

 

I don't think you can avoid bringing up the past when leavers keep banging on about it being democratic etc and the will of the people when in fact as said it was a disgrace to democracy. If you ask me some pollys should be held to account for that otherwise it will go on getting worse if they can just lie their arses off and get away with it. Sorry Antony but if an ex American presidents vague threats is the best you can do to recall remain lies then I rest my case.

 

That said Rich is partly right in that we are where we are and whilst I don't think we can or ever will just brush aside the disgraceful performance that happened in the name of democracy we do need to look ahead which is why it's very important that those in power do indeed listen to and respect the will of the people. Brexiteers will of course agree as it was their mantra until oddly around the time of the election. I and many others do not think it is the will of the people anymore and certainly not a hard Brexit. That must be clear to everyone now. I think the campaign now should be to put pressure onto the government to recognise that and if they are too weak to acknowledge that fact then replace them with one that will.

 

Eh ... The most powerful person in the world at that moment says Britain would be at the back of the queue for trade deals attempting to put fear into folk thinking we'd be financially crippled and you think thats OK and you rest your case ... Fair enough Barry , doesn't surprise me at all

 

You know what my point was Antony and all you can come up with is what some ex President of another country says. How can he be part of the "Vote Leave" Game? He said that purely because of US interests not as part of some Vote Remain stitch up and you know it. Must try harder! :-D

 

Dont bother though as there isnt a single lie you can put forward from "Remain" just the odd bit of speculation and predictions some of which are already coming true.

 

As Rich says though. Lets look forward not backward and see how we can get out of this mess. :D

Here is the subservient Gove grovelling at his "Masters" feet.

 

Trump; ".....Obama said you'd go the back of the line...."

 

Gove; "...and now we at the front of the queue"

 

Trump; "....err....i think you guys are doing great". *-)

 

[Barryd999]

Ha!

 

If anyone think America will be our saviour think again. I worked with the Americans for years and spent a lot of time there working and believe me they will be your best pals to your face an treat you reeeeeel nice but will drop you like a stone the minute you dont benefit them. They are not our bessy mates.