Brexit Brinkmanship?

[nowtelse2do]

John52 - 2017-09-06 3:27 PM

 

nowtelse2do - 2017-09-06 9:38 AM

 

John52 - 2017-09-06 9:02 AM

 

nowtelse2do - 2017-09-06 8:53 AM

 

I didn't vote out for the reasons above, I voted out because I don't want my country run by Germany. The EU is run totally by Germany, forget Brussels, they are only the mouth piece.

 

Dave

 

Germany is the biggest and most successful economy in the EU.

Germany has just posted another record surplus, Britain another record deficit despite having a state pension one third that of Germany.

Is there nothing our politicians could learn from them *-)

 

 

The clue is in your post.

 

Well Germany is not running this country. I only wish they were because then we would have a strong economy and 3 times the state pension like them. :-S

 

They are running the EU, we have to abide by EU rules which suits them more than us, so by the back door they are ruling us, not only us but the rest of the EU also.

[derek pringle]

Brian Kirby - 2017-09-05 1:33 PM

 

derek pringle - 2017-09-03 8:24 AM............................It does seem obvious to me though that if ALL what was generated in a country STAYED in that country for nationals then each little slice of the cake would be larger, for us to do with whatever we decide as a country. For instance,if we reduced spending on all the people who come here for a better economic future then perhaps we could avoid our own people sleeping in the streets while accommodation is being given out to others. Nursing homes for the elderly may not be in such short supply. I also feel for the people who have had their retirement plans trashed by the recent changes, glad it did not affect me-did it affect you?if so I would be surprised if you thought it was a good idea. We have young people stuck in poorly paid jobs with poor t's and c's whilst older people are being forced to stay in largely better more established jobs.

Just all seems a bit cock-eyed to me.

cheers

derek

Currently, the UK has historically low unemployment. The rough sleepers sleep rough not because of EU policy, but because of UK policy. Those who come for a better economic future are providing labour that the UK cannot provide from its own population - the number of foreign workers in the UK far exceeds the number of unemployed. The EU is not making nursing accommodation for the elderly scarce, the UK government is doing that. Retirement plans were not trashed by the EU, but by the UK government. The poorly paid jobs were not made so by the EU, but by the UK government. It is cock-eyed, but even more so to blame the EU for things the UK government is doing/has done.

hi Brian,

I agree and was not blaming the EU for our problems, they are home made. I do believe they say a lot is for the economy and yet I believe it is only for a selected few.Lots of people who employ lots of EU nationals I assume also employ top accountants to make sure they pay as little as possible in to society. If we have a very low taxed country with a massive workforce not earning enough to pay tax, how on earth do we solve some of these social problems?

cheers

derek

[Brian Kirby]

derek pringle - 2017-09-07 8:59 AM.....................................If we have a very low taxed country with a massive workforce not earning enough to pay tax, how on earth do we solve some of these social problems?

cheers

derek

Apologies for the misunderstanding, Derek, I thought you were implying that the EU had been responsible for some of those items.

 

Regarding your question above: well, yes, indeed, how do we solve those problems? It seems to my simple mind that we either have to raise the pay levels of the low paid, increase tax on the better off, or a bit of both. Getting rid of those who claim benefits seems liable to cause further problems, and getting them all into work (to the maximum extent possible) flies in the face of conventional economic thinking. Tricky, innit? :-)

[John52]

derek pringle - 2017-09-07 8:59 AM

 

If we have a very low taxed country........

derek

 

If you believe that the con is working.

I think it was Sir Geoffrey Howe who really developed the wheeze of reducing income tax, and increasing stealth taxes (which hit the poor the hardest) to make up for it. Successive governments have followed on with it. Every time they raise the income tax threshold by £1,000 they say its to help the low paid *-) But of course the really low paid aren't paying tax anyway so get nothing from it - except hammered by the stealth taxes they slip in to replace income tax (20% VAT, Insurance Premium Tax etc etc). Those a bit better off save £1,000 x the basic rate. But the highest paid save £1,000 x the highest rate.......

Even worse for the poor has been Government intervention in the housing market to force up house prices and rents top the benefit of landowners in Government....

[John52]

Brian Kirby - 2017-09-07 6:50 PM

Getting rid of those who claim benefits seems liable to cause further problems, and getting them all into work

I understand most housing benefit claimants are already in work - but government intervention in the housing market has forced rents out of proportion to wages.

[Guest pelmetman]

Brian Kirby - 2017-09-05 1:06 PM

 

pelmetman - 2017-08-30 7:59 PM.........................With a bit of luck we'll wake up on BREXIT day 1) with no deal......and 2) NO BILL >:-) .........

1) Possible, but hardly good luck.

2) Not even in your wildest dreams will there be no bill. You voted for it - so I'll be passing my share on to you! :-D

 

Feel free ;-) .........I'll add them to the debt I intend to leave HMG >:-) .......

 

 

[Guest pelmetman]

Brian Kirby - 2017-09-05 1:13 PM

 

antony1969 - 2017-09-01 6:24 AM......................Errr ... Exactly ... Thats why I voted to leave and won

A pyrrhic victory to end all pyrrhic victories!

 

......And worth every dam penny >:-) .........

 

 

[Guest pelmetman]

John52 - 2017-09-07 7:51 PM

 

Brian Kirby - 2017-09-07 6:50 PM

Getting rid of those who claim benefits seems liable to cause further problems, and getting them all into work

I understand most housing benefit claimants are already in work - but government intervention in the housing market has forced rents out of proportion to wages.

 

Dunno about that :-S ......

 

We just put our house up for rent at the top rentable value advised by 3 letting agents.......and we got gazumped 8-).........

 

We've been offered 50 quid a month more than we were asking B-) .........

 

 

 

 

[Barryd999]

Howdy folks. Good to see the Brexit debates are still in full flow here.

 

Ive not been on for a while as ive been busy working in Lovely mainland Europe for the past three months trying to assure lovely Europeans that its all been a bit of a daft British joke and not to worry as we wont be leaving but we will just pretend we have a bit to appease the Brexiteers who hopefully wont realise. :D

 

Actually my experience having talked to many Germans, Dutch and French is that nearly all think we are bonkers and they seem to feel sorry for us as they reckon we are doomed. A lot of them are not entirely happy with the EU but would they consider leaving the club? Never.

 

Ive been going around handing out little EU Flag heart stickers and singing Remoaner songs. Its important that our lovely European cousins know that at least half of the UK doesnt want to pull up the draw bridge. :D

 

Ive not been to Spain yet but Im not far from there now and intend to post Wanted Posters up of key Brexiteers on here who will no doubt be flocking there for the entire winter. :D

[Tracker]

That's great news Barry, and glad to see you are still gadding about enjoying yourself! Long may it continue.

 

It's wonderful news that the German, Dutch and French people are happy to house, feed, support, and pay for thousands of economic migrants from all over the world as well as support the rest of undeveloped Eastern Europe as that is hopefully one job less for us to do!

 

I suspect the Italians and other Med based nations are not quite so keen as they seem to be bearing the brunt of it in the true EU way where blind eyes and deaf ears seem to be turned whenever it suits Brussels?

 

Only time will tell if they are still as happy, or unhappy, in five years time!

[antony1969]

Glad your back Barry ... We need more women on here ... Veronica and Bullet the only other ones I can think of and of course Bullet I think is the only Muslim too ... We need to become more diverse on here with maybe a few LBGTQRSTU types too , Dave Pelmet being the first to officially come out ... You been away Barry ??/

[Brian Kirby]

Barryd999 - 2017-09-08 8:13 AM......................... Its important that our lovely European cousins know that at least half of the UK doesnt want to pull up the draw bridge. :D....................

Oh, but it's far worse that that, Barry. I'm sick of people trotting out their little mantra that "The British People" voted to leave the EU. They did not, and there is evidence that they did.

 

37% of the electorate (25% of the people) voted leave, 35% voted remain, and the remaining 28% didn't vote - so no-one has the slightest idea how they might have voted, and no right to claim their votes in absentia.

 

The electorate split three ways, with only a majority of votes cast being in favour of leaving. "The British People" includes those like Indignant Dave Pelmet, who resents that he was too young to vote in '73, but now shows little sympathy for those too young to vote in 2016. It is, of course, only those who voted leave who endlessly try to bolster their position by claiming majority status when they are, in fact, a minority of both the electorate, and the people.

 

I know you know this, but it seems worth regularly stating - if only so that Antony can call me a "sore loser" once more! :-D

[Tracker]

Brian Kirby - 2017-09-08 12:40 PM

 

37% of the electorate (25% of the people) voted leave, 35% voted remain, and the remaining 28% didn't vote - so no-one has the slightest idea how they might have voted, and no right to claim their votes in absentia.

if only so that Antony can call me a "sore loser" once more! :-D

 

It matters not how many voters actually voted, the point is that everyone eligible to vote was eligible to vote and if they chose not to vote, regardless of which way, then they should not complain about the result not going any which way. Not that I am suggesting this applies to you Brian, I hasten to add!

 

One could, I won't, but one could interpolate those that did not vote into two groups either yea or nay and maybe, or maybe not, those two interpolated groups would fall roughly in line with the numbers of those who did vote yea or nay?

 

Or maybe many of those who did not vote did not vote beacsue they perhaps didn't understand the question or they did not care either way or they simply did not know which way would be best for either themselves or for the UK?

 

Whatever, it makes no never mind, as we are where we are and the job now is to make the best of it.

 

I have never seen you as a sore loser Brian, more as one who has a different view to those who would impose their 'Brexit is right' views on others.

 

Only time and a succesion of equally inept governments from either side and senior civil servants with their own agendas will show us, but it will only show us where we are, not where we might have been had we opted to remain?

 

So it's all hypothesis and we will just have to wait and see how it unfurls, assuming we live long enough that is!

[antony1969]

Brian Kirby - 2017-09-08 12:40 PM

 

Barryd999 - 2017-09-08 8:13 AM......................... Its important that our lovely European cousins know that at least half of the UK doesnt want to pull up the draw bridge. :D....................

Oh, but it's far worse that that, Barry. I'm sick of people trotting out their little mantra that "The British People" voted to leave the EU. They did not, and there is evidence that they did.

 

37% of the electorate (25% of the people) voted leave, 35% voted remain, and the remaining 28% didn't vote - so no-one has the slightest idea how they might have voted, and no right to claim their votes in absentia.

 

The electorate split three ways, with only a majority of votes cast being in favour of leaving. "The British People" includes those like Indignant Dave Pelmet, who resents that he was too young to vote in '73, but now shows little sympathy for those too young to vote in 2016. It is, of course, only those who voted leave who endlessly try to bolster their position by claiming majority status when they are, in fact, a minority of both the electorate, and the people.

 

I know you know this, but it seems worth regularly stating - if only so that Antony can call me a "sore loser" once more! :-D

 

Don't want to disappoint ... SORE LOSER ! ... Didn't hurt did it B-)

[Brian Kirby]

antony1969 - 2017-09-08 3:02 PM.................................Don't want to disappoint ... SORE LOSER ! ... Didn't hurt did it B-)

Not one bit, Antony, though it was a bit predictable! :-D

[Barryd999]

Tracker - 2017-09-08 9:36 AM

 

That's great news Barry, and glad to see you are still gadding about enjoying yourself! Long may it continue.

 

It's wonderful news that the German, Dutch and French people are happy to house, feed, support, and pay for thousands of economic migrants from all over the world as well as support the rest of undeveloped Eastern Europe as that is hopefully one job less for us to do!

 

I suspect the Italians and other Med based nations are not quite so keen as they seem to be bearing the brunt of it in the true EU way where blind eyes and deaf ears seem to be turned whenever it suits Brussels?

 

Only time will tell if they are still as happy, or unhappy, in five years time!

 

Do you think that by leaving the EU Rich that it somehow lets us off the hook from shouldering any responsibility for the current refugee and migrant crisis? I see Brexit and the migrant crisis as two different issues to be honest. Sadly I think thanks to the likes of Farage and his racist posters depicting migrants all flocking to the UK during the Vote Leave campaign its hardly surprising that many think its all to do with the EU.

 

I dont want to get into another long winded debate about Migrants but it never came up in conversation to be honest with my European friends. I spent a month in Germany I might add and never saw any people that appeared to be refugees or migrants. Wonder where they all went.

 

I hope the EU does get its act together to be honest to help sort out this problem and for countries to share the burden. In our out the UK should do more than it has. I agree about Italy and of course Greece, others should help.

 

[antony1969]

Brian Kirby - 2017-09-08 3:49 PM

 

antony1969 - 2017-09-08 3:02 PM.................................Don't want to disappoint ... SORE LOSER ! ... Didn't hurt did it B-)

Not one bit, Antony, though it was a bit predictable! :-D

 

Thats me all over though

[Brian Kirby]

Tracker - 2017-09-08 12:56 PM...............................So it's all hypothesis and we will just have to wait and see how it unfurls, assuming we live long enough that is!

You are, of course, right Rich. However, it is interesting, and somewhat worrying, that more information keeps coming to light after the vote, that should have been revealed beforehand.

 

Our politicians, on all sides, badly misjudged when they voted in favour of the referendum. Now it has happened, and they have the result, they are collectively shackled by their decision, and for the most part lack the courage to reject the result in the light of the newly emerging facts. They are provoked to that stance by the committed leavers' (whose opinions I respect, but reject) taunts of being anti-democratic if they question the orthodoxy of "the people spoke". This is, in itself, against our system of democracy, since we elect them to use the information and knowledge (and researchers) that we pay for (and mainly cannot access), and to base their judgements on that better information. We are being frogmarched by a minority, and yet are supposed to be content with that in the name of an alien version of democracy. Well, as you know, I ain't!

[Barryd999]

Brian Kirby - 2017-09-08 12:40 PM

 

Barryd999 - 2017-09-08 8:13 AM......................... Its important that our lovely European cousins know that at least half of the UK doesnt want to pull up the draw bridge. :D....................

Oh, but it's far worse that that, Barry. I'm sick of people trotting out their little mantra that "The British People" voted to leave the EU. They did not, and there is evidence that they did.

 

37% of the electorate (25% of the people) voted leave, 35% voted remain, and the remaining 28% didn't vote - so no-one has the slightest idea how they might have voted, and no right to claim their votes in absentia.

 

The electorate split three ways, with only a majority of votes cast being in favour of leaving. "The British People" includes those like Indignant Dave Pelmet, who resents that he was too young to vote in '73, but now shows little sympathy for those too young to vote in 2016. It is, of course, only those who voted leave who endlessly try to bolster their position by claiming majority status when they are, in fact, a minority of both the electorate, and the people.

 

I know you know this, but it seems worth regularly stating - if only so that Antony can call me a "sore loser" once more! :-D

 

Yes and of course and its become the Mantra of our Tory leaders now as well. More so since they realise its all going to end in tears. "Its the will of the people" I hear them say more and more and this will be their get out of jail card when it all goes wrong. Just following orders Gov.

[antony1969]

Barryd999 - 2017-09-08 4:01 PM

 

Tracker - 2017-09-08 9:36 AM

 

That's great news Barry, and glad to see you are still gadding about enjoying yourself! Long may it continue.

 

It's wonderful news that the German, Dutch and French people are happy to house, feed, support, and pay for thousands of economic migrants from all over the world as well as support the rest of undeveloped Eastern Europe as that is hopefully one job less for us to do!

 

I suspect the Italians and other Med based nations are not quite so keen as they seem to be bearing the brunt of it in the true EU way where blind eyes and deaf ears seem to be turned whenever it suits Brussels?

 

Only time will tell if they are still as happy, or unhappy, in five years time!

 

Do you think that by leaving the EU Rich that it somehow lets us off the hook from shouldering any responsibility for the current refugee and migrant crisis? I see Brexit and the migrant crisis as two different issues to be honest. Sadly I think thanks to the likes of Farage and his racist posters depicting migrants all flocking to the UK during the Vote Leave campaign its hardly surprising that many think its all to do with the EU.

 

I dont want to get into another long winded debate about Migrants but it never came up in conversation to be honest with my European friends. I spent a month in Germany I might add and never saw any people that appeared to be refugees or migrants. Wonder where they all went.

 

I hope the EU does get its act together to be honest to help sort out this problem and for countries to share the burden. In our out the UK should do more than it has. I agree about Italy and of course Greece, others should help.

 

Bit like saying I spent a month in parts of this country and never saw a Muslim / black / Pakistani / Indian ... Doesn't mean they aren't here in large numbers ... Two years ago in Koblenz I remember seeing hundreds of em , they were housed in a refugee centre just up the road ... All young males by the way ... Lovely folk

[Brian Kirby]

Tracker - 2017-09-08 12:56 PM...............................So it's all hypothesis and we will just have to wait and see how it unfurls, assuming we live long enough that is!

You are, of course, right Rich. However, it is interesting, and somewhat worrying, that more information keeps coming to light after the vote, that should have been revealed beforehand.

 

Our politicians, on all sides, badly misjudged when they voted in favour of the referendum. Now it has happened, and they have the result, they are collectively shackled by their decision, and for the most part lack the courage to reject the result in the light of the newly emerging facts. They are provoked to that stance by the committed leavers' (whose opinions I respect, but reject) taunts of being anti-democratic if they question the orthodoxy of "the people spoke". This is, in itself, against our system of democracy, since we elect them to use the information and knowledge (and researchers) that we pay for (and mainly cannot access), and to base their judgements on that better information. We are being frogmarched by a minority, and yet are supposed to be content with that in the name of an alien version of democracy. Well, as you know, I ain't!

[RogerC]

Brian Kirby - 2017-09-08 5:08 PM

Tracker - 2017-09-08 12:56 PM...............................So it's all hypothesis and we will just have to wait and see how it unfurls, assuming we live long enough that is!

You are, of course, right Rich. However, it is interesting, and somewhat worrying, that more information keeps coming to light after the vote, that should have been revealed beforehand.Our politicians, on all sides, badly misjudged when they voted in favour of the referendum. Now it has happened, and they have the result, they are collectively shackled by their decision, and for the most part lack the courage to reject the result in the light of the newly emerging facts. They are provoked to that stance by the committed leavers' (whose opinions I respect, but reject) taunts of being anti-democratic if they question the orthodoxy of "the people spoke". This is, in itself, against our system of democracy, since we elect them to use the information and knowledge (and researchers) that we pay for (and mainly cannot access), and to base their judgements on that better information. We are being frogmarched by a minority, and yet are supposed to be content with that in the name of an alien version of democracy. Well, as you know, I ain't!

Which minority is that Brian?

[Tracker]

Brian Kirby - 2017-09-08 5:08 PM

However, it is interesting, and somewhat worrying, that more information keeps coming to light after the vote, that should have been revealed beforehand.

 

Ain't that a nasty truth about the alleged the democracy of both the UK and the EU.

 

Perhaps if we had had a referendum before DC went through the shamblolic and contrived 'negotiations' for better terms and then another vote at the end of the 'negotiations', both sides might have shown a bit more imagination and commitment before the second vote?

[Brian Kirby]

RogerC - 2017-09-08 5:18 PM......................Which minority is that Brian?

The 37% Roger.

[antony1969]

RogerC - 2017-09-08 5:18 PM

Brian Kirby - 2017-09-08 5:08 PM

Tracker - 2017-09-08 12:56 PM...............................So it's all hypothesis and we will just have to wait and see how it unfurls, assuming we live long enough that is!

You are, of course, right Rich. However, it is interesting, and somewhat worrying, that more information keeps coming to light after the vote, that should have been revealed beforehand.Our politicians, on all sides, badly misjudged when they voted in favour of the referendum. Now it has happened, and they have the result, they are collectively shackled by their decision, and for the most part lack the courage to reject the result in the light of the newly emerging facts. They are provoked to that stance by the committed leavers' (whose opinions I respect, but reject) taunts of being anti-democratic if they question the orthodoxy of "the people spoke". This is, in itself, against our system of democracy, since we elect them to use the information and knowledge (and researchers) that we pay for (and mainly cannot access), and to base their judgements on that better information. We are being frogmarched by a minority, and yet are supposed to be content with that in the name of an alien version of democracy. Well, as you know, I ain't!

Which minority is that Brian?

The minority Brians on about I think is the majority that won fair und square the referendum ... Ya know the referendum where we were all sold a dummy apparently according to the sores on ere ... B-) 8-)