Brexit Brinkmanship?

[John52]

We can't all make a living selling each other pensions or even repairing each other's roofs. We need to buy things from abroad - and can't keep borrowing to pay for them. We don't have enough people making things we can sell abroad, and most of those who do depend on free trade with the EU. :-(

[Tracker]

We could make and grow a lot more for ourselves but successive governments have taken the soft options of a highly portable financial services future built upon artificial retail demand fuelled by irresponsible banks and lenders, surley a potent mixture of probablel bubble bursting potential.

 

And then there were the unions insisting that their 'brothers' be paid too much for doing too little and then throwing hissy fits when manufacturers said no but eventually capitilated prior to going bankrupt and production from abroad filling the void.

 

If, and it's a great big if, we as a country made reliable cars, washing machines, mowers and just about everything else like we used to and sold them at affordable prices there would be full and gainfull employment, and real apprenticeships, not false jobs created by any government obsessed with staying in power - and once again we would be living in Utopia because we lack the political and social will to make it happen!

[Bulletguy]

Tracker - 2017-09-05 8:06 PM

 

We could make and grow a lot more for ourselves......

Allotment plots are expensive and waiting lists long. You have to wait until an owner gives up or pops his clogs.

 

Maybe we could introduce a Five Year Plan aka Maoism and send all the prollies out into the fields of wheat where Mrs May could relive her daring childhood? With some 30 million peasant 'prols' dead from famine.....it didn't end too well.

 

If, and it's a great big if, we as a country made reliable cars, washing machines, mowers and just about everything else like we used to and sold them at affordable prices....

UK currently manufactures 11 brand names, none of which are British owned or ever will be though six of 'em used to be. There only remains three entirely British owned and built.....Morgan, Caterham and McLaren. They aren't cheap.

 

Ebac make washers....but at a £350 start price are hardly competitive.

 

Atco and Hayter still manage to knock up a few lawnmowers.....but they ain't cheap either.

[antony1969]

John52 - 2017-09-05 3:13 PM

 

antony1969 - 2017-09-05 1:58 PM

having to listen to sore , sour losers for over a year

Thats barely begun because we will all be losers. Nobody will get what they voted for because the Brexiteers voted for things they were promised but can't have.

 

If this is to be believed and its a big if given all the drivel spewed on both sides but mainly by remoaners then it exceeds everything I voted for to start with ... I'd be one happy little bunny ... https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4399158/eu-migration-cap-leaked-government-brexit-papers/ ... See the usuals though are whinging already , Queen Nicola , terrorists friend Jeremy and that thing thats London Mayor ... Happy days

[John52]

Tracker - 2017-09-05 8:06 PM

 

We could make and grow a lot more for ourselves but successive governments have taken the soft options of a highly portable financial services future built upon artificial retail demand fuelled by irresponsible banks and lenders, surley a potent mixture of probablel bubble bursting potential.

 

And then there were the unions insisting that their 'brothers' be paid too much for doing too little and then throwing hissy fits when manufacturers said no but eventually capitilated prior to going bankrupt and production from abroad filling the void.

 

If, and it's a great big if, we as a country made reliable cars, washing machines, mowers and just about everything else like we used to and sold them at affordable prices there would be full and gainfull employment, and real apprenticeships, not false jobs created by any government obsessed with staying in power - and once again we would be living in Utopia because we lack the political and social will to make it happen!

 

Actually Germany is far more unionised than Britain with workers having a say on company boards.

German workers are paid more too - but not the bosses.

Our working class unions have been crushed (except for the public sector) but boardroom excess left to run amok.

 

[John52]

antony1969 - 2017-09-06 7:02 AM

 

John52 - 2017-09-05 3:13 PM

 

antony1969 - 2017-09-05 1:58 PM

having to listen to sore , sour losers for over a year

Thats barely begun because we will all be losers. Nobody will get what they voted for because the Brexiteers voted for things they were promised but can't have.

 

If this is to be believed and its a big if given all the drivel spewed on both sides but mainly by remoaners then it exceeds everything I voted for to start with ... I'd be one happy little bunny ... https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4399158/eu-migration-cap-leaked-government-brexit-papers/ ... See the usuals though are whinging already , Queen Nicola , terrorists friend Jeremy and that thing thats London Mayor ... Happy days

 

Se we will be asking for free trade to keep the car factories etc here, but not free movement of people which is a fundamental principle of the EU. And they are going to agree to that are they *-)

[nowtelse2do]

I didn't vote out for the reasons above, I voted out because I don't want my country run by Germany. The EU is run totally by Germany, forget Brussels, they are only the mouth piece.

 

Dave

[Guest pelmetman]

Bulletguy - 2017-09-05 9:54 PM

 

Tracker - 2017-09-05 8:06 PM

 

We could make and grow a lot more for ourselves......

Allotment plots are expensive and waiting lists long. You have to wait until an owner gives up or pops his clogs.

 

 

Expensive? :-S........

 

Our new house backs onto allotments, £12 a year and there's several available, I suspect the soil is a lovely loam like ours to B-).........

 

Fortunately there are still some small market towns that are still very English :D .........

 

 

[Guest pelmetman]

John52 - 2017-09-06 7:56 AM

 

antony1969 - 2017-09-06 7:02 AM

 

John52 - 2017-09-05 3:13 PM

 

antony1969 - 2017-09-05 1:58 PM

having to listen to sore , sour losers for over a year

Thats barely begun because we will all be losers. Nobody will get what they voted for because the Brexiteers voted for things they were promised but can't have.

 

If this is to be believed and its a big if given all the drivel spewed on both sides but mainly by remoaners then it exceeds everything I voted for to start with ... I'd be one happy little bunny ... https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4399158/eu-migration-cap-leaked-government-brexit-papers/ ... See the usuals though are whinging already , Queen Nicola , terrorists friend Jeremy and that thing thats London Mayor ... Happy days

 

Se we will be asking for free trade to keep the car factories etc here, but not free movement of people which is a fundamental principle of the EU. And they are going to agree to that are they *-)

 

Nothing wrong with free movement ;-) .......

 

I'm quite happy for folk to come here on holiday >:-) ........

 

Or folk who have skills we need.......I don't think we have a shortage of criminals? >:-) ........

 

 

[John52]

nowtelse2do - 2017-09-06 8:53 AM

 

I didn't vote out for the reasons above, I voted out because I don't want my country run by Germany. The EU is run totally by Germany, forget Brussels, they are only the mouth piece.

 

Dave

 

Germany is the biggest and most successful economy in the EU.

Germany has just posted another record surplus, Britain another record deficit despite having a state pension one third that of Germany.

Is there nothing our politicians could learn from them *-)

[nowtelse2do]

John52 - 2017-09-06 9:02 AM

 

nowtelse2do - 2017-09-06 8:53 AM

 

I didn't vote out for the reasons above, I voted out because I don't want my country run by Germany. The EU is run totally by Germany, forget Brussels, they are only the mouth piece.

 

Dave

 

Germany is the biggest and most successful economy in the EU.

Germany has just posted another record surplus, Britain another record deficit despite having a state pension one third that of Germany.

Is there nothing our politicians could learn from them *-)

 

 

The clue is in your post.

[Brian Kirby]

Tracker - 2017-09-05 7:36 PM

 

Did anyone really believe all the crud that was bandied about by both sides in the Brexit vote?

 

Surely intelligent adults are not that gullible?

To which I'd add two things.

First, that they SHOULD have been able to believe that what they were told was reasonably factual. Events since have shown that not to be true.

Second, that voting rights are not limited to the intelligent, ergo................................!! :-D

[Brian Kirby]

Tracker - 2017-09-05 8:06 PM............................If, and it's a great big if, we as a country made reliable cars, washing machines, mowers and just about everything else like we used to and sold them at affordable prices there would be full and gainfull employment, and real apprenticeships, not false jobs created by any government obsessed with staying in power - and once again we would be living in Utopia because we lack the political and social will to make it happen!

Agreed! However, our successive governments have not ensured that happened. Our managements failed to run their companies effectively, so those companies that still exist are now largely foreign owned, and the UK workforce produces those reliable commodities for them instead, with the lion's share of the profit going elsewhere. But, in relationship to the EU, this has no relevance. This is ALL the handiwork of UK plc, no more, no less.

[antony1969]

Brian Kirby - 2017-09-06 9:51 AM

 

Tracker - 2017-09-05 7:36 PM

 

Did anyone really believe all the crud that was bandied about by both sides in the Brexit vote?

 

Surely intelligent adults are not that gullible?

To which I'd add two things.

First, that they SHOULD have been able to believe that what they were told was reasonably factual. Events since have shown that not to be true.

Second, that voting rights are not limited to the intelligent, ergo................................!! :-D

 

Leave voters were inteligent enough to see what was/is happening in their communities and inteligent enough to decide they did not like it ... Thats why areas with high numbers of immigrants voted more or less altogether in large numbers to leave ... Most even managed to put the X mark on the paper without help

[Brian Kirby]

antony1969 - 2017-09-06 10:01 AM

 

Brian Kirby - 2017-09-06 9:51 AM

 

Tracker - 2017-09-05 7:36 PM

 

Did anyone really believe all the crud that was bandied about by both sides in the Brexit vote?

 

Surely intelligent adults are not that gullible?

To which I'd add two things.

First, that they SHOULD have been able to believe that what they were told was reasonably factual. Events since have shown that not to be true.

Second, that voting rights are not limited to the intelligent, ergo................................!! :-D

 

Leave voters were inteligent enough to see what was/is happening in their communities and inteligent enough to decide they did not like it ... Thats why areas with high numbers of immigrants voted more or less altogether in large numbers to leave ... Most even managed to put the X mark on the paper without help

Yes, but they were mistaken, were they not, in believing that the numbers of migrants they were seeing were due to the actions of the EU? They were the actions of their immediate neighbours, aided by HMG, who wanted the relatively cheap, bright, motivated workers that could easily be recruited from the newer, poorer, EU members. This was mainly to reduce "cost push" inflation which, translated, means to keep incomes down. Do those people really believe that will suddenly change with Brexit? I think they are in for a rude awakening if they do.

 

The migration rules are already being fudged as part of the government's Brexit policy formulation to allow "selected" migrants in - which simply means that those admitted will be much the same groups as before. Industry and commerce aren't going to allow their source of cheap labour to be snuffed out, are they? That would require them to invest in productivity improving plant, which they don't want to risk, because they can't see where their return would come from, because of the instability of the £, which is due to the Brexit they voted for. That was forecast, but they wrote that warning off as "project fear". Oh dear, another pyrrhic victory.

 

Besides all of which, did those intelligent people not realise that over half of UK immigration was (and still is) coming from outside the EU and, being totally unaffected by EU "freedom of movement rules", could have been heavily restricted by any UK government wishing to do so? Did they not ask themselves why? Have they told you why they apparently decided that non-EU migration was fine, but EU migration wasn't? Help me out here Antony, because I can't begin to understand their logic.

[Tracker]

Brian Kirby - 2017-09-06 11:05 AM

Help me out here, because I can't begin to understand their logic.

 

Words of a contradiction in terms, just one of many that should never be used together - government and logic!

 

Now take government and self-interest, government and short termism, government and inept, as better examples of words that can be used together, plus you can replace the word 'goverment' with 'civil service' or 'politicians' and get the same results!

 

Accepting that we get the government we vote for the big drawback is that no matter who we elect the same contradictions in terms apply, so maybe in the grand scheme of things it matters not who gets in?

 

Disillusioned? You bet I am!!!

 

[Brian Kirby]

antony1969 - 2017-09-06 7:02 AM

 

John52 - 2017-09-05 3:13 PM

 

antony1969 - 2017-09-05 1:58 PM

having to listen to sore , sour losers for over a year

Thats barely begun because we will all be losers. Nobody will get what they voted for because the Brexiteers voted for things they were promised but can't have.

 

If this is to be believed and its a big if given all the drivel spewed on both sides but mainly by remoaners then it exceeds everything I voted for to start with ... I'd be one happy little bunny ... https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4399158/eu-migration-cap-leaked-government-brexit-papers/ ... See the usuals though are whinging already , Queen Nicola , terrorists friend Jeremy and that thing thats London Mayor ... Happy days

This is clinging to a straw, Antony. All it says is that the numbers of "low skilled" UE migrants will be "capped". Did you spot that? I'll repeat it. Low skilled. See? First question: who decides the definition of low skilled? Answer on a postcard, please. Next up: capped. Did you spot that? Again, I'll repeat it. Capped. See? Second question: capped by whom? Third question: capped at what level? As you say, happy days! Though I'm not at all sure who for. Oh, these pyrrhic victories keep on coming! :-D Still, as long as you're happy.

[Tracker]

We all have our points of view but when people start insulting and name calling to try and reinforce their own views it does the opposite as it devalues not only their own case but also the entire discussion.

 

I personally think in the longer term Brexit will be good for the UK but I fully understand and can see, and largely agree with the points made by those who would rather remain so lets just talk about the issues ?

[Brian Kirby]

Tracker - 2017-09-06 11:16 AM

 

Brian Kirby - 2017-09-06 11:05 AM

Help me out here, because I can't begin to understand their logic.

 

Words of a contradiction in terms, just one of many that should never be used together - government and logic!

 

Now take government and self-interest, government and short termism, government and inept, as better examples of words that can be used together, plus you can replace the word 'goverment' with 'civil service' or 'politicians' and get the same results!

 

Accepting that we get the government we vote for the big drawback is that no matter who we elect the same contradictions in terms apply, so maybe in the grand scheme of things it matters not who gets in?

 

Disillusioned? You bet I am!!!

So am I, but I think some of what seems so clear and simple at first sight (e.g. Brexit, among many things) is revealed to be far more complex when confronted by the reality of trying to implement it (e.g. Brexit, among other things :-)).

 

Unfortunately, there is no test of competence to become a politician, the seemingly most important requirements being a willingness to subsume whatever intelligence they may have to fit with party dogma, self-confidence greatly exceeding ability, and boundless optimism (a good public school education, with its regular injections of religious faith, sooo helps here).

 

So, it seems to me we get the wrong people into the job, because the selection process too often goes for charisma and showmanship instead of boring, task driven, technocrats. In short, personality over substance.

[Brian Kirby]

Tracker - 2017-09-06 11:36 AM...................so lets just talk about the issues ?

You mean the weather? :-D

[Tracker]

Brian Kirby - 2017-09-06 11:41 AM

 

Tracker - 2017-09-06 11:36 AM...................so lets just talk about the issues ?

You mean the weather? :-D

 

Good morning Brian, what's the weather like in Sussex today!!

 

That is the new question whether to discuss the weather or whether there is someting less interesting to talk about!

[Brian Kirby]

"The time has come," the Walrus said,

"To talk of many things:

Of shoes--and ships--and sealing-wax--

Of cabbages--and kings--

And why the sea is boiling hot--

And whether pigs have wings."

 

With apologies to Lewis Carroll, but I've always liked that bit.

[antony1969]

Brian Kirby - 2017-09-06 11:16 AM

 

antony1969 - 2017-09-06 7:02 AM

 

John52 - 2017-09-05 3:13 PM

 

antony1969 - 2017-09-05 1:58 PM

having to listen to sore , sour losers for over a year

Thats barely begun because we will all be losers. Nobody will get what they voted for because the Brexiteers voted for things they were promised but can't have.

 

If this is to be believed and its a big if given all the drivel spewed on both sides but mainly by remoaners then it exceeds everything I voted for to start with ... I'd be one happy little bunny ... https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4399158/eu-migration-cap-leaked-government-brexit-papers/ ... See the usuals though are whinging already , Queen Nicola , terrorists friend Jeremy and that thing thats London Mayor ... Happy days

This is clinging to a straw, Antony. All it says is that the numbers of "low skilled" UE migrants will be "capped". Did you spot that? I'll repeat it. Low skilled. See? First question: who decides the definition of low skilled? Answer on a postcard, please. Next up: capped. Did you spot that? Again, I'll repeat it. Capped. See? Second question: capped by whom? Third question: capped at what level? As you say, happy days! Though I'm not at all sure who for. Oh, these pyrrhic victories keep on coming! :-D Still, as long as you're happy.

 

Like I hopefully made clear the leaked document is just that a leaked document not by any means the end product I would have thought ... If low skilled EU types are to be capped as the document suggests in whatever shape or form that eventually takes then that is way more than was happening before the vote , so yes I am very happy and I as many others hope it is just the beginning of sorting out who can and can not come into old blighty and not just from the EU

[John52]

nowtelse2do - 2017-09-06 9:38 AM

 

John52 - 2017-09-06 9:02 AM

 

nowtelse2do - 2017-09-06 8:53 AM

 

I didn't vote out for the reasons above, I voted out because I don't want my country run by Germany. The EU is run totally by Germany, forget Brussels, they are only the mouth piece.

 

Dave

 

Germany is the biggest and most successful economy in the EU.

Germany has just posted another record surplus, Britain another record deficit despite having a state pension one third that of Germany.

Is there nothing our politicians could learn from them *-)

 

 

The clue is in your post.

 

Well Germany is not running this country. I only wish they were because then we would have a strong economy and 3 times the state pension like them. :-S

[John52]

Tracker - 2017-09-05 8:06 PM

And then there were the unions insisting that their 'brothers' be paid too much for doing too little and then throwing hissy fits when manufacturers said no but eventually capitilated prior to going bankrupt and production from abroad filling the void.!

Yes there are those who still blame Red Robbo for the demise of Rover, even though he was sacked 17 years before it was driven to bankruptcy by its overpaid asset stripping managers.

Now, free of British management, the much maligned British Car worker is doing very well ... at least until Brexit when component deliveries get stuck in customs :-S