John52 Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 So we are being asked to believe only Putin had this stuff, and yet the British can instantly recognise it, what it does, and where it came from *-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 John52 - 2018-03-16 10:17 AM So we are being asked to believe only Putin had this stuff, and yet the British can instantly recognise it, what it does, and where it came from *-) They didn't instantly recognise it, what it does, and where it came from. :-( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 John52 - 2018-03-17 1:17 AMSo we are being asked to believe only Putin had this stuff, and yet the British can instantly recognise it, what it does, and where it came from *-) Our police/science/intelligence people may have had to do quite a bit of testing and head scratching to get as close as they have to a precise identity of this nerve agent and this would account for the delays in releasing information about it. Even now they are giving only fairly vague information (eg not naming the specific agent) and this might mean they don't want to tell Russia how far they have got with identifying and tracking the administration route or simply that they can't work it out except in broad terms, eg from purely circumstantial evidence. "Beyond reasonable doubt" doesn't require absolute proof, just a firm enough basis to make a judgement. The combination of what's known about the origins of these Russian-designed and Russian-made nerve agents and the track record of Russian resort to assasination-type killings using hi-tech methods (in this case perhaps in the hope the deaths would remain mysterious) is pretty convincing to me. It's important to remeber that this stuff is designed to be deployed as precursor checmicals, to control the huge risks of handling the nerve agent itself in the field. Even if Russian gangsters had got their hands on some of it, it would have to have been recently because otherwise it would have gone off long ago. And Putin is part of the gangster scene anyway isn't he? Jeremy Corbin's approach, of waiting for absolute proof of guilt before taking issue with Russia about this attack, strikes me as knowingly burying your head in the sand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 malc d - 2018-03-16 9:47 AM Bulletguy - 2018-03-15 10:57 PM And another thought provoking read! https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/russian-spy-case-could-spell-trouble-for-abramovich-wcwzvwh8g The Times won't let me read it. :-| Malc......you just register an email and user password which gives you two or three free reads a week. If you can't log in this is the article in full. Scene one: A courtroom, just off the Strand in London in 2011. The room is small and functional. There are cases of mauve-and-blue files near a wall. Halogen strips illuminate lawyers making polite argument as slips of paper are passed back and forth. Lady Justice Gloster smiles as Laurence Rabinowitz, QC, the counsel for Boris Berezovsky, mispronounces the name of Roman Abramovich, the defendant. Abramovich, a few places away, remains expressionless. Scene two: An isolation cell in Moscow in 2009. Sergei Magnitsky, a corporate lawyer who has investigated wrongdoing at the highest levels of the Russian state, is lying on the floor. He has been held without trial for 11 months. He has been beaten with batons. He has been deprived of sleep. Pleading for his life, he calls for a doctor. He is met by a phalanx of riot police, who bludgeon him to death. His only crime, according to campaigners, was to “tell the truth”. Keep these two scenes in mind as we try to “tell the truth” about the chicanery that followed the Boris Yeltsin privatisations. This is a story that will encompass the question, ducked for so long, about whether the ownership of Chelsea Football Club should be removed from Abramovich through legal decree, but it will also call out the near-silence that has surrounded one of the biggest scandals in British sport. This is an issue that should have been confronted far earlier. First, let’s explore why Magnitsky was murdered and why a clause in his name may soon be a part of British law. Magnitsky worked for Bill Browder, an American hedge-fund owner. As told in Browder’s startling book Red Notice, the financier had been the victim of a £150 million tax fraud from which Vladimir Putin’s associates had benefited. Magnitsky, Browder’s lawyer, had courageously named the men he believed were guilty. The Kremlin responded by having him jailed, assuming that this would be the last of it. The power of Putin is so absolute that few people dare stand up to him. Browder had different ideas; successfully lobbying the American Congress for a change in the law to hit Putin’s cronies where it hurts most. Officials in Russia siphon off money from legitimate businesses through threat and intimidation. They then squirrel the money out of the country, into prime assets in the West, ready for their retirement and holidays, and as a bolthole to escape justice when Putin finally leaves office. The Magnitsky Act of 2012 is, in part, about confiscating that money. It is not anti-Russian, but pro the Russian people who have been swindled by gangsters and oligarchs for so long. As Browder put it in a column in The Mail on Sunday: “It only takes a stroll through Belgravia in west London to see this. Every self-respecting member of the Putin regime has an expensive home in Britain. They like our property ownership laws, which guarantee them title and give them a safe asset abroad should they ever need to flee. “For them, there is no greater status symbol than a townhouse in Belgrave Square or Eaton Terrace. They send their children to public school and enjoy shopping on the Kings Road. It is important to remember that Putin’s cronies have bought these grand houses with billions stolen from the Russian state. Our response should be to seize these houses, bank accounts and shares.” Browder is right. The US has already passed a version of the Magnitsky Act and has seized the assets of dozens of corrupt Russians. The law sent a chill through Putin’s kleptocracy. We should introduce a beefed-up version of the same law. Why should anyone be allowed to benefit from defrauding their own people and then enjoy the trappings of gilded privilege in London? And this takes us back to scene one. For, in his legal scrap with Berezovsky, Abramovich opened up for the first time about how he amassed a personal fortune of £8 billion. Jonathan Sumption, QC, his lawyer and now a judge in the Supreme Court, admitted that the auction that handed Abramovich control of Sibneft, the Russian energy giant, was “rigged”. The court also heard that it was a “stitch-up”. In essence, this was one of a series of deals in which Yeltsin handed the mineral wealth of the Russian people to the oligarchs at a fraction of its true cost in return, it is claimed, for free advertising on their TV channels in the build-up to the 1996 election. Paul Gregory, the economist, described the Sibneft deal as “the largest single heist in corporate history and a lasting emblem of the corruption of modern Russia”. Abramovich’s involvement may only have gone so far as the “stitched-up” auction, but surely that is corruption. For Yeltsin, the gamble worked. He won the election having trailed in the polls. As for Abramovich, who has always denied knowledge of anything corrupt, he became rich beyond his dreams. The deal enabled him to emerge victorious from the notorious aluminium wars. He bought a fleet of yachts, helicopters, his own private Boeing and homes around the world, including a £125 million London mansion in Kensington. He also bought Chelsea FC, presumably confident that his assets would be safe in a nation that has long enjoyed the cash flowing from oligarchs. A strong UK version of the Magnitsky Act could change all that. It could enable the state to determine whether assets owned in Britain were paid for with ill-gotten cash. If our legislators have the courage to draft a rigorous clause, the deal could be looked into and it is not just Abramovich’s homes and private assets that may then be at risk, but Chelsea FC. This could also bring to an end a long-running saga that has shamed the English game and received scant scrutiny. In football, the oligarch is mentioned affectionately for his engaging grin and enigmatic personality. People eulogise the money he has lavished on Chelsea and his charitable causes. This is moral chicanery, however. How can a man be praised for spending a fraction of the wealth that, according to his barrister, was obtained through a stitch-up? The closeness of Putin and Abramovich can be seen by examining Putin’s Kleptocracy: Who Owns Russia?, the book by Karen Dawisha, professor of political science at Miami University. “Abramovich helped fund the purchase for $50 million of Putin’s first presidential yacht,” she writes. Regular readers will know that this subject has often been tackled in this space, triggering hate mail and anonymous threats. As for Putin’s enemies, they have met all manner of curious ends. Berezovsky ended up dead in a locked bathroom, a ligature around his neck. A British coroner recorded an open verdict but US intelligence officials suspect an assassination. Buzzfeed has chronicled 13 other suspicious deaths in the UK, including Alexander Perepilichnyy, who suffered a heart attack while jogging, and Alexander Litvinenko, who died after drinking tea laced with a radioactive substance. A public inquiry found that Litvinenko’s assassination was probably ordered by Putin himself. Yesterday, Nikolai Glushkov, who was a friend of Berezovsky and who testified in the case against Abramovich was also found dead. Putin cronies act with impunity because they have, for too long, got away with it. They have never feared retribution because policy has been so lax. British political parties have taken Russian money, guaranteed anonymity for investors in London and only belatedly tackled issues such as Baltic defences and the strategic danger of Russia’s gas export monopoly. This could be about to change. History teaches that bullies are only stopped when they are met by a stern response. That is why the Magnitsky law is not just about justice, but geopolitics. It is one of the few usable weapons that Putin and the oligarchs fear. As for Abramovich, he may be wondering, perhaps for the first time, whether that rigged auction is finally about to catch up with him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 John52 - 2018-03-16 10:17 AM So we are being asked to believe only Putin had this stuff, and yet the British can instantly recognise it, what it does, and where it came from *-) In a word, yes. May is misleading the public in a similar way as Blair/Bush did over wmd's. Remember this bloke who was torn to shreds by the Establishment and committed 'suicide' a few days later? https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/jul/16/david-kelly-death-10-years-on Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 Bulletguy - 2018-03-16 4:04 PM malc d - 2018-03-16 9:47 AM Bulletguy - 2018-03-15 10:57 PM And another thought provoking read! https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/russian-spy-case-could-spell-trouble-for-abramovich-wcwzvwh8g The Times won't let me read it. :-| Malc......you just register an email and user password which gives you two or three free reads a week. If you can't log in this is the article in full. . I realised that - but my newsagent doesn't ask for my e-mail address when I go in for a newspaper - so why would I want to give it to The Times ? ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 malc d - 2018-03-16 4:43 PM I realised that - but my newsagent doesn't ask for my e-mail address when I go in for a newspaper - so why would I want to give it to The Times ? There is an old proverb - never argue with policemen or lunatics - and as the Putin / Corbyn sympathisers sure are not coppers....................................................... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 StuartO - 2018-03-16 10:46 AM Jeremy Corbin's approach, of waiting for absolute proof of guilt before taking issue with Russia about this attack, strikes me as knowingly burying your head in the sand. Have you any conception of how damaging it is to make such allegations if they are not true - particularly since politicians are unlikely to admit it when they are wrong. Since the Tories wrecked our coal mines and sold off our power supplies we depend on the Soviet Union for our gas, and thats just the start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 malc d - 2018-03-16 4:43 PM Bulletguy - 2018-03-16 4:04 PM malc d - 2018-03-16 9:47 AM Bulletguy - 2018-03-15 10:57 PM And another thought provoking read! https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/russian-spy-case-could-spell-trouble-for-abramovich-wcwzvwh8g The Times won't let me read it. :-| Malc......you just register an email and user password which gives you two or three free reads a week. If you can't log in this is the article in full. . I realised that - but my newsagent doesn't ask for my e-mail address when I go in for a newspaper - so why would I want to give it to The Times ? ;-) No he'd ask you for £1.40 instead. :-> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 Bulletguy - 2018-03-16 6:15 PM malc d - 2018-03-16 4:43 PM Bulletguy - 2018-03-16 4:04 PM malc d - 2018-03-16 9:47 AM Bulletguy - 2018-03-15 10:57 PM And another thought provoking read! https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/russian-spy-case-could-spell-trouble-for-abramovich-wcwzvwh8g The Times won't let me read it. :-| Malc......you just register an email and user password which gives you two or three free reads a week. If you can't log in this is the article in full. . I realised that - but my newsagent doesn't ask for my e-mail address when I go in for a newspaper - so why would I want to give it to The Times ? ;-) No he'd ask you for £1.40 instead. :-> But he wouldn't sell my details to some marketing pests. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 malc d - 2018-03-16 8:51 PM Bulletguy - 2018-03-16 6:15 PM malc d - 2018-03-16 4:43 PM Bulletguy - 2018-03-16 4:04 PM malc d - 2018-03-16 9:47 AM Bulletguy - 2018-03-15 10:57 PM And another thought provoking read! https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/russian-spy-case-could-spell-trouble-for-abramovich-wcwzvwh8g The Times won't let me read it. :-| Malc......you just register an email and user password which gives you two or three free reads a week. If you can't log in this is the article in full. . I realised that - but my newsagent doesn't ask for my e-mail address when I go in for a newspaper - so why would I want to give it to The Times ? ;-) No he'd ask you for £1.40 instead. :-> But he wouldn't sell my details to some marketing pests. ;-) That's what people set up Hotmail, Gmail or Outlook email accounts for......junk mail. I never register my primary IP email with anything i don't want it to go to. If only i could do the same with the letterbox on my front door it would save me the faff of sifting out all the piles of junk mail that come through. I'm beginning to wonder if you're still on dial up?!! (lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted March 17, 2018 Share Posted March 17, 2018 John52 - 2018-03-16 5:31 PM StuartO - 2018-03-16 10:46 AM Jeremy Corbin's approach, of waiting for absolute proof of guilt before taking issue with Russia about this attack, strikes me as knowingly burying your head in the sand. Have you any conception of how damaging it is to make such allegations if they are not true - particularly since politicians are unlikely to admit it when they are wrong. Since the Tories wrecked our coal mines and sold off our power supplies we depend on the Soviet Union for our gas, and thats just the start. Apparently they never shot down the Malaysian airliner either *-) ........ I wonder who it was that annexed the Crimea? :-S .......... It's no wonder Putin's puppet would say there was no crime here........or there >:-) ...... One things for sure......Corbyn's got no shame either *-) ....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted March 17, 2018 Share Posted March 17, 2018 Spectemur Agendo - applies to us all including Bashar al Assad, Kim Jong Un, Robert Mugabe and quite a few other world leaders, but particularly Vlad the Bad for his ongoing actions over the years. I wonder if any of these lovely people have used their ill gotten wealth wisely to help others? Unless it is all media propaganda that we have all fallen for and they are all wonderful people? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted March 17, 2018 Share Posted March 17, 2018 Bulletguy - 2018-03-16 9:17 PM That's what people set up Hotmail, Gmail or Outlook email accounts for......junk mail. I never register my primary IP email with anything i don't want it to go to. If only i could do the same with the letterbox on my front door it would save me the faff of sifting out all the piles of junk mail that come through. I'm beginning to wonder if you're still on dial up?!! (lol) ... and I'm beginning to wonder if you know why you get piles of junk mail through your letterbox. ( I get hardly any ). :-| Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted March 17, 2018 Share Posted March 17, 2018 pelmetman - 2018-03-17 8:03 AM John52 - 2018-03-16 5:31 PM StuartO - 2018-03-16 10:46 AM Jeremy Corbin's approach, of waiting for absolute proof of guilt before taking issue with Russia about this attack, strikes me as knowingly burying your head in the sand. Have you any conception of how damaging it is to make such allegations if they are not true - particularly since politicians are unlikely to admit it when they are wrong. Since the Tories wrecked our coal mines and sold off our power supplies we depend on the Soviet Union for our gas, and thats just the start. Apparently they never shot down the Malaysian airliner either *-) ........ I wonder who it was that annexed the Crimea? :-S .......... It's no wonder Putin's puppet would say there was no crime here........or there >:-) ...... One things for sure......Corbyn's got no shame either *-) ....... Is changing the subject to Corbyn your way of saying you realise none of that proves Putin was involved? More to the point, what have we achieved by expelling each other's diplomats at a time when Britain needs all the support it can get? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted March 17, 2018 Share Posted March 17, 2018 John52 - 2018-03-17 11:12 AM More to the point, what have we achieved by expelling each other's diplomats at a time when Britain needs all the support it can get? Support?.......from Russia?.......How very Communist Party >:-) ......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted March 17, 2018 Share Posted March 17, 2018 Tracker - 2018-03-17 9:27 AM Spectemur Agendo - applies to us all including Bashar al Assad, Kim Jong Un, Robert Mugabe and quite a few other world leaders, but particularly Vlad the Bad for his ongoing actions over the years. I wonder if any of these lovely people have used their ill gotten wealth wisely to help others? Unless it is all media propaganda that we have all fallen for and they are all wonderful people? Putin/Trump?? Ask Christopher Steele.........oops we can't because his lawyers say it 'might hurt UK security'. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-dossier-christopher-steele-latest-lawyers-say-testimony-could-hurt-uk-national-security-a8195926.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted March 17, 2018 Share Posted March 17, 2018 malc d - 2018-03-17 10:24 AM Bulletguy - 2018-03-16 9:17 PM That's what people set up Hotmail, Gmail or Outlook email accounts for......junk mail. I never register my primary IP email with anything i don't want it to go to. If only i could do the same with the letterbox on my front door it would save me the faff of sifting out all the piles of junk mail that come through. I'm beginning to wonder if you're still on dial up?!! (lol) ... and I'm beginning to wonder if you know why you get piles of junk mail through your letterbox. ( I get hardly any ). :-| The Establishment know i have an open fire Malc so have sent me supplies of free fuel for years. (lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted March 17, 2018 Share Posted March 17, 2018 pelmetman - 2018-03-17 11:19 AM John52 - 2018-03-17 11:12 AM More to the point, what have we achieved by expelling each other's diplomats at a time when Britain needs all the support it can get? Support?.......from Russia?.......How very Communist Party >:-) ......... Actually support from Russia is very Tory party because we need Russian gas now the Tories have destroyed our coal mines. Sanctions from Russia and China have brought Kim Jon Ung to the negotiating table.. But I suppose the Daily Mail will tell you thatt was Trump - even though Kim Jon fired off another missile every time Trump went on Twitter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted March 17, 2018 Share Posted March 17, 2018 John52 - 2018-03-17 1:27 PM Actually support from Russia is very Tory party because we need Russian gas now the Tories have destroyed our coal mines. Sanctions from Russia and China have brought Kim Jon Ung to the negotiating table.. But I suppose the Daily Mail will tell you thatt was Trump - even though Kim Jon fired off another missile every time Trump went on Twitter. The world according to 'Kin John 52 - I dunno how my, and thousands of other, gas boilers would work on coal - might be a bit too lumpy and smokey? If only Russia was so keen on applying sanctions on Assad maybe the killing in Syria would stop and the real bonus for us would be less terrorist immigrants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted March 17, 2018 Share Posted March 17, 2018 Tracker - 2018-03-17 2:21 PM John52 - 2018-03-17 1:27 PM Actually support from Russia is very Tory party because we need Russian gas now the Tories have destroyed our coal mines. Sanctions from Russia and China have brought Kim Jon Ung to the negotiating table.. But I suppose the Daily Mail will tell you thatt was Trump - even though Kim Jon fired off another missile every time Trump went on Twitter. The world according to 'Kin John 52 - I dunno how my, and thousands of other, gas boilers would work on coal - might be a bit too lumpy and smokey? If only Russia was so keen on applying sanctions on Assad maybe the killing in Syria would stop and the real bonus for us would be less terrorist immigrants. British Coal supplied our electricity, but the Tories found it better to depend on the likes of Putin and Saudi Arabian Dictators than Working Class Trade Unions. But perhaps your changing the subject to Syria means you realise that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted March 17, 2018 Share Posted March 17, 2018 You do seem to have a warped understanding of changing the subject in that it is OK when you extend a discussion to include other related, or non related, issues but not when someone else does it? Why include the unions which held the rest of us to ransom too many times, and still do all too often. Personally I was delighted to see the destruction of the NUM's bullying hold on everyone who disagreed with King Arthur and his gold plated ivory tower - gosh that sounds familiar - I wonder what world leaders adopt a similar approach? And as for coal, it was of it's age and quite rightfully has been consigned to history as inappropriately expensive to procure, dirty, smelly, polluting and inefficient in use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted March 17, 2018 Share Posted March 17, 2018 John52 - 2018-03-17 1:27 PM pelmetman - 2018-03-17 11:19 AM John52 - 2018-03-17 11:12 AM More to the point, what have we achieved by expelling each other's diplomats at a time when Britain needs all the support it can get? Support?.......from Russia?.......How very Communist Party >:-) ......... Actually support from Russia is very Tory party because we need Russian gas now the Tories have destroyed our coal mines. Sanctions from Russia and China have brought Kim Jon Ung to the negotiating table.. But I suppose the Daily Mail will tell you thatt was Trump - even though Kim Jon fired off another missile every time Trump went on Twitter. Actually it just proves those Tory capitalist will deal with any dodgy b*stard to get a cheap deal ;-) ...... Where as Corbyn will sell his soul for a cup of Russian b*stard tea >:-) ......... I'm with the Tory's .......I'd do a cheap deal with them B-) ....... But I wouldn't drink their tea as you never know what they've put in it 8-) .......... Corbyn's was obviously laced with Puppet juice.......Have you and Bullet been to his gaff for a cuppa Peter? :-S ............. Just askin ;-) ........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted March 17, 2018 Share Posted March 17, 2018 And lets not pretend the Tory Governments allegations against Putin are anything to do with human rights. Saudi Arabian Dictators are far worse than Putin, and they roll out the red carpet at Buckingham Palace for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted March 17, 2018 Share Posted March 17, 2018 John52 - 2018-03-17 2:36 PM And lets not pretend the Tory Governments allegations against Putin are anything to do with human rights. Saudi Arabian Dictators are far worse than Putin, and they roll out the red carpet at Buckingham Palace for them. The Saudis buy billions of pounds worth of arms from us - Russia don't - so what else do you expect from a trading nation such as we are? They may as well use our bombs as Russian or Chinese bombs and unless the whole world unites in ceasing arms trade why should we cut off our noses to spite our faces? Just look at Putin's record on human rights as that now seems to be your latest subject change, or has that very conveniently escaped your attention? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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