Guest pelmetman Posted September 21, 2019 Share Posted September 21, 2019 Barryd999 - 2019-09-20 2:12 PM pelmetman - 2019-09-20 1:33 PM Barryd999 - 2019-09-20 1:27 PM 747 - 2019-09-20 12:44 PM Pop Up Pepe....... Pops Up...... Has a Pop...... Then Pops Off ........... You can't help but laugh at him! .......... :D I like that Dave .... very funny. Although what he says is true, unfortunately. ;-) If pricking the pompous and winding up the more moronic element puts me into that category then I plead guilty as charged. :D Your not a fan of FunnyJohn either then eh? (lol) Funny?........It seems to me it's the "anti democratic" Remoaners/liberals who have reached the summit of Hypocrite hill >:-) ........ They have already said they'd ignore a Leave vote Win if there's another referendum........Staggering hypocrisy *-) ........... Thats not what they have said is it? They will revoke article 50 if they win outright power in a general election. Well thats fine as it will be in their manifesto so if elected it means more than half of the UK no longer want Brexit. Democracy. They have as much chance of course of winning a GE outright as I have of winning the X factor so on that basis their position is a Peoples Vote. So in effect the GE will be a "Peoples Vote" ;-) ............ No doubt "Oh No Joe" will accept the result of that either (lol) (lol) (lol) ......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
747 Posted September 21, 2019 Share Posted September 21, 2019 Conrad J - 2019-09-20 9:40 PM This issue won’t get resolved unless politicians stop behaving in the same way as you lot, deeply divided across the gulf of in or out. Let’s not forget that the referendum result was only just a “win” for one side, so a reasonable way ahead would have been leave but still with close trading links such as staying in the customs union, thus avoiding the Ireland border problem, and we could all get on with normal life. Even if the Liberal Democrats win the general election, it will probably be with only 30% or so of the electorate, as is usual in our system on voting, so plenty of scope there for arguing that they don’t have the rights to overturn the referendum result. But good luck to them anyway for standing up clearly stating what they believe in, better than the vagueness of the Labour Party or the Tories led by the blond buffoon who has yet to come up with any concrete proposals, because he hasn’t got any. Conrad, I have never been bothered about the referendum result. I did vote to leave but would not have been bothered if it went the other way. I don't suppose either would have much (if any) effect on me or my family. What I strenuously object to is the aftermath and actions of those who felt somehow cheated by the result. The net effect might culminate in a quasi Communist Government which will wreck what is left of the country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barryd999 Posted September 21, 2019 Share Posted September 21, 2019 pelmetman - 2019-09-21 9:09 AM Barryd999 - 2019-09-20 2:12 PM pelmetman - 2019-09-20 1:33 PM Barryd999 - 2019-09-20 1:27 PM 747 - 2019-09-20 12:44 PM Pop Up Pepe....... Pops Up...... Has a Pop...... Then Pops Off ........... You can't help but laugh at him! .......... :D I like that Dave .... very funny. Although what he says is true, unfortunately. ;-) If pricking the pompous and winding up the more moronic element puts me into that category then I plead guilty as charged. :D Your not a fan of FunnyJohn either then eh? (lol) Funny?........It seems to me it's the "anti democratic" Remoaners/liberals who have reached the summit of Hypocrite hill >:-) ........ They have already said they'd ignore a Leave vote Win if there's another referendum........Staggering hypocrisy *-) ........... Thats not what they have said is it? They will revoke article 50 if they win outright power in a general election. Well thats fine as it will be in their manifesto so if elected it means more than half of the UK no longer want Brexit. Democracy. They have as much chance of course of winning a GE outright as I have of winning the X factor so on that basis their position is a Peoples Vote. So in effect the GE will be a "Peoples Vote" ;-) ............ No doubt "Oh No Joe" will accept the result of that either (lol) (lol) (lol) ......... No. I've explained this to you before. Look what happened in the eu elections. Both sides were claiming a victory. The only way to have a people's vote (stupid fecking name) Is to actually have a vote on whatever we are left with be it no deal vs remain or the deal vs remain. There is probably a mandate not to have one if Johnson gets a good deal but if he doesn't or it does not get passed then there is. There is certainly no mandate to take us out without a deal. The 2017 election proved that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted September 21, 2019 Share Posted September 21, 2019 Barryd999 - 2019-09-21 4:25 PM pelmetman - 2019-09-21 9:09 AM Barryd999 - 2019-09-20 2:12 PM pelmetman - 2019-09-20 1:33 PM Barryd999 - 2019-09-20 1:27 PM 747 - 2019-09-20 12:44 PM Pop Up Pepe....... Pops Up...... Has a Pop...... Then Pops Off ........... You can't help but laugh at him! .......... :D I like that Dave .... very funny. Although what he says is true, unfortunately. ;-) If pricking the pompous and winding up the more moronic element puts me into that category then I plead guilty as charged. :D Your not a fan of FunnyJohn either then eh? (lol) Funny?........It seems to me it's the "anti democratic" Remoaners/liberals who have reached the summit of Hypocrite hill >:-) ........ They have already said they'd ignore a Leave vote Win if there's another referendum........Staggering hypocrisy *-) ........... Thats not what they have said is it? They will revoke article 50 if they win outright power in a general election. Well thats fine as it will be in their manifesto so if elected it means more than half of the UK no longer want Brexit. Democracy. They have as much chance of course of winning a GE outright as I have of winning the X factor so on that basis their position is a Peoples Vote. So in effect the GE will be a "Peoples Vote" ;-) ............ No doubt "Oh No Joe" will accept the result of that either (lol) (lol) (lol) ......... No. I've explained this to you before. Look what happened in the eu elections. Both sides were claiming a victory. The only way to have a people's vote (stupid fecking name) Is to actually have a vote on whatever we are left with be it no deal vs remain or the deal vs remain. There is probably a mandate not to have one if Johnson gets a good deal but if he doesn't or it does not get passed then there is. There is certainly no mandate to take us out without a deal. The 2017 election proved that. No. You have tried to convince me before that The Brexit Party didn't win *-) .......... https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48403131 The Brexit Party 29 seats.......The LOSER Lib Dems 16........ Only a demented Barry mind would convince itself that's a win for Remoaners >:-) ......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted September 21, 2019 Share Posted September 21, 2019 747 - 2019-09-21 1:21 PM Conrad J - 2019-09-20 9:40 PM This issue won’t get resolved unless politicians stop behaving in the same way as you lot, deeply divided across the gulf of in or out. Let’s not forget that the referendum result was only just a “win” for one side, so a reasonable way ahead would have been leave but still with close trading links such as staying in the customs union, thus avoiding the Ireland border problem, and we could all get on with normal life. Even if the Liberal Democrats win the general election, it will probably be with only 30% or so of the electorate, as is usual in our system on voting, so plenty of scope there for arguing that they don’t have the rights to overturn the referendum result. But good luck to them anyway for standing up clearly stating what they believe in, better than the vagueness of the Labour Party or the Tories led by the blond buffoon who has yet to come up with any concrete proposals, because he hasn’t got any. Conrad, I have never been bothered about the referendum result. I did vote to leave but would not have been bothered if it went the other way. I don't suppose either would have much (if any) effect on me or my family. So if being in the EU didn't affect you or your family......why would you vote for the unknown? Would you buy a property without a survey? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted September 21, 2019 Share Posted September 21, 2019 Bulletguy - 2019-09-21 9:34 PM 747 - 2019-09-21 1:21 PM Conrad J - 2019-09-20 9:40 PM This issue won’t get resolved unless politicians stop behaving in the same way as you lot, deeply divided across the gulf of in or out. Let’s not forget that the referendum result was only just a “win” for one side, so a reasonable way ahead would have been leave but still with close trading links such as staying in the customs union, thus avoiding the Ireland border problem, and we could all get on with normal life. Even if the Liberal Democrats win the general election, it will probably be with only 30% or so of the electorate, as is usual in our system on voting, so plenty of scope there for arguing that they don’t have the rights to overturn the referendum result. But good luck to them anyway for standing up clearly stating what they believe in, better than the vagueness of the Labour Party or the Tories led by the blond buffoon who has yet to come up with any concrete proposals, because he hasn’t got any. Conrad, I have never been bothered about the referendum result. I did vote to leave but would not have been bothered if it went the other way. I don't suppose either would have much (if any) effect on me or my family. So if being in the EU didn't affect you or your family......why would you vote for the unknown? Would you buy a property without a survey? Yep ;-) ...........Twice :D ........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barryd999 Posted September 21, 2019 Share Posted September 21, 2019 pelmetman - 2019-09-21 6:05 PM Barryd999 - 2019-09-21 4:25 PM pelmetman - 2019-09-21 9:09 AM Barryd999 - 2019-09-20 2:12 PM pelmetman - 2019-09-20 1:33 PM Barryd999 - 2019-09-20 1:27 PM 747 - 2019-09-20 12:44 PM Pop Up Pepe....... Pops Up...... Has a Pop...... Then Pops Off ........... You can't help but laugh at him! .......... :D I like that Dave .... very funny. Although what he says is true, unfortunately. ;-) If pricking the pompous and winding up the more moronic element puts me into that category then I plead guilty as charged. :D Your not a fan of FunnyJohn either then eh? (lol) Funny?........It seems to me it's the "anti democratic" Remoaners/liberals who have reached the summit of Hypocrite hill >:-) ........ They have already said they'd ignore a Leave vote Win if there's another referendum........Staggering hypocrisy *-) ........... Thats not what they have said is it? They will revoke article 50 if they win outright power in a general election. Well thats fine as it will be in their manifesto so if elected it means more than half of the UK no longer want Brexit. Democracy. They have as much chance of course of winning a GE outright as I have of winning the X factor so on that basis their position is a Peoples Vote. So in effect the GE will be a "Peoples Vote" ;-) ............ No doubt "Oh No Joe" will accept the result of that either (lol) (lol) (lol) ......... No. I've explained this to you before. Look what happened in the eu elections. Both sides were claiming a victory. The only way to have a people's vote (stupid fecking name) Is to actually have a vote on whatever we are left with be it no deal vs remain or the deal vs remain. There is probably a mandate not to have one if Johnson gets a good deal but if he doesn't or it does not get passed then there is. There is certainly no mandate to take us out without a deal. The 2017 election proved that. No. You have tried to convince me before that The Brexit Party didn't win *-) .......... https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48403131 The Brexit Party 29 seats.......The LOSER Lib Dems 16........ Only a demented Barry mind would convince itself that's a win for Remoaners >:-) ......... But remain parties got more votes. That's my whole point though, it's open to interpretation. If no deal is the only option, it's perfectly simple, put it to a public vote. If not why not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
747 Posted September 22, 2019 Share Posted September 22, 2019 Bulletguy - 2019-09-21 9:34 PM 747 - 2019-09-21 1:21 PM Conrad J - 2019-09-20 9:40 PM This issue won’t get resolved unless politicians stop behaving in the same way as you lot, deeply divided across the gulf of in or out. Let’s not forget that the referendum result was only just a “win” for one side, so a reasonable way ahead would have been leave but still with close trading links such as staying in the customs union, thus avoiding the Ireland border problem, and we could all get on with normal life. Even if the Liberal Democrats win the general election, it will probably be with only 30% or so of the electorate, as is usual in our system on voting, so plenty of scope there for arguing that they don’t have the rights to overturn the referendum result. But good luck to them anyway for standing up clearly stating what they believe in, better than the vagueness of the Labour Party or the Tories led by the blond buffoon who has yet to come up with any concrete proposals, because he hasn’t got any. Conrad, I have never been bothered about the referendum result. I did vote to leave but would not have been bothered if it went the other way. I don't suppose either would have much (if any) effect on me or my family. So if being in the EU didn't affect you or your family......why would you vote for the unknown? Would you buy a property without a survey? Because I had been doing my 'survey' for quite a few years before any referendum was thought of. All of it from both sides is 'unknown'. You think remaining in the EU is a 'known'? So how long have you been able to foretell the future? I don't think you had any deep thoughts about that until you got the wrong referendum result and started absorbing all the scare stories from Project Fear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted September 22, 2019 Share Posted September 22, 2019 Barryd999 - 2019-09-21 10:35 PM pelmetman - 2019-09-21 6:05 PM Barryd999 - 2019-09-21 4:25 PM pelmetman - 2019-09-21 9:09 AM Barryd999 - 2019-09-20 2:12 PM pelmetman - 2019-09-20 1:33 PM Barryd999 - 2019-09-20 1:27 PM 747 - 2019-09-20 12:44 PM Pop Up Pepe....... Pops Up...... Has a Pop...... Then Pops Off ........... You can't help but laugh at him! .......... :D I like that Dave .... very funny. Although what he says is true, unfortunately. ;-) If pricking the pompous and winding up the more moronic element puts me into that category then I plead guilty as charged. :D Your not a fan of FunnyJohn either then eh? (lol) Funny?........It seems to me it's the "anti democratic" Remoaners/liberals who have reached the summit of Hypocrite hill >:-) ........ They have already said they'd ignore a Leave vote Win if there's another referendum........Staggering hypocrisy *-) ........... Thats not what they have said is it? They will revoke article 50 if they win outright power in a general election. Well thats fine as it will be in their manifesto so if elected it means more than half of the UK no longer want Brexit. Democracy. They have as much chance of course of winning a GE outright as I have of winning the X factor so on that basis their position is a Peoples Vote. So in effect the GE will be a "Peoples Vote" ;-) ............ No doubt "Oh No Joe" will accept the result of that either (lol) (lol) (lol) ......... No. I've explained this to you before. Look what happened in the eu elections. Both sides were claiming a victory. The only way to have a people's vote (stupid fecking name) Is to actually have a vote on whatever we are left with be it no deal vs remain or the deal vs remain. There is probably a mandate not to have one if Johnson gets a good deal but if he doesn't or it does not get passed then there is. There is certainly no mandate to take us out without a deal. The 2017 election proved that. No. You have tried to convince me before that The Brexit Party didn't win *-) .......... https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48403131 The Brexit Party 29 seats.......The LOSER Lib Dems 16........ Only a demented Barry mind would convince itself that's a win for Remoaners >:-) ......... But remain parties got more votes. That's my whole point though, it's open to interpretation. If no deal is the only option, it's perfectly simple, put it to a public vote. If not why not? Because you don't want No Deal on the ballot........and you'll just ignore the result if Leave win again........So another vote is pointless *-) .......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted September 22, 2019 Share Posted September 22, 2019 747 - 2019-09-22 8:07 AM Bulletguy - 2019-09-21 9:34 PM 747 - 2019-09-21 1:21 PM Conrad J - 2019-09-20 9:40 PM This issue won’t get resolved unless politicians stop behaving in the same way as you lot, deeply divided across the gulf of in or out. Let’s not forget that the referendum result was only just a “win” for one side, so a reasonable way ahead would have been leave but still with close trading links such as staying in the customs union, thus avoiding the Ireland border problem, and we could all get on with normal life. Even if the Liberal Democrats win the general election, it will probably be with only 30% or so of the electorate, as is usual in our system on voting, so plenty of scope there for arguing that they don’t have the rights to overturn the referendum result. But good luck to them anyway for standing up clearly stating what they believe in, better than the vagueness of the Labour Party or the Tories led by the blond buffoon who has yet to come up with any concrete proposals, because he hasn’t got any. Conrad, I have never been bothered about the referendum result. I did vote to leave but would not have been bothered if it went the other way. I don't suppose either would have much (if any) effect on me or my family. So if being in the EU didn't affect you or your family......why would you vote for the unknown? Would you buy a property without a survey? Because I had been doing my 'survey' for quite a few years before any referendum was thought of. But you said in your opinion neither remaining or leaving would have any adverse effect on you or your family. So what led you to vote for something you couldn't possibly know the outcome of? Did you believe what Johnsons red bus told you? Many did and still do though now say it was only a suggestion. Did you believe what you were told about immigration? Yes EU workers disappeared in their droves after made to feel unwelcome here.....only for numbers of migrants from non-EU countries to rapidly increase. Up to now about the only promise you've come away with is a return to blue passports, something we never needed leave the EU for just as with many other things such as immigration control. All of it from both sides is 'unknown'. You think remaining in the EU is a 'known'? We've been an EU member country for 40 years so should know by now what our current benefits and entitlements are. Having a seat at the table to engage in any future decisions made sense and was always going to be better than not having one at all. So how long have you been able to foretell the future? I don't think you had any deep thoughts about that until you got the wrong referendum result and started absorbing all the scare stories from Project Fear. Never......yet apparently your "survey" you say you'd carried out for a number of years before any referendum, convinced you to vote for the unknown. I find that quite astonishing. What did your "survey" tell you about the Ireland border issue because government are hopelessly deadlocked on that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barryd999 Posted September 22, 2019 Share Posted September 22, 2019 pelmetman - 2019-09-22 9:31 AM Barryd999 - 2019-09-21 10:35 PM pelmetman - 2019-09-21 6:05 PM Barryd999 - 2019-09-21 4:25 PM pelmetman - 2019-09-21 9:09 AM Barryd999 - 2019-09-20 2:12 PM pelmetman - 2019-09-20 1:33 PM Barryd999 - 2019-09-20 1:27 PM 747 - 2019-09-20 12:44 PM Pop Up Pepe....... Pops Up...... Has a Pop...... Then Pops Off ........... You can't help but laugh at him! .......... :D I like that Dave .... very funny. Although what he says is true, unfortunately. ;-) If pricking the pompous and winding up the more moronic element puts me into that category then I plead guilty as charged. :D Your not a fan of FunnyJohn either then eh? (lol) Funny?........It seems to me it's the "anti democratic" Remoaners/liberals who have reached the summit of Hypocrite hill >:-) ........ They have already said they'd ignore a Leave vote Win if there's another referendum........Staggering hypocrisy *-) ........... Thats not what they have said is it? They will revoke article 50 if they win outright power in a general election. Well thats fine as it will be in their manifesto so if elected it means more than half of the UK no longer want Brexit. Democracy. They have as much chance of course of winning a GE outright as I have of winning the X factor so on that basis their position is a Peoples Vote. So in effect the GE will be a "Peoples Vote" ;-) ............ No doubt "Oh No Joe" will accept the result of that either (lol) (lol) (lol) ......... No. I've explained this to you before. Look what happened in the eu elections. Both sides were claiming a victory. The only way to have a people's vote (stupid fecking name) Is to actually have a vote on whatever we are left with be it no deal vs remain or the deal vs remain. There is probably a mandate not to have one if Johnson gets a good deal but if he doesn't or it does not get passed then there is. There is certainly no mandate to take us out without a deal. The 2017 election proved that. No. You have tried to convince me before that The Brexit Party didn't win *-) .......... https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48403131 The Brexit Party 29 seats.......The LOSER Lib Dems 16........ Only a demented Barry mind would convince itself that's a win for Remoaners >:-) ......... But remain parties got more votes. That's my whole point though, it's open to interpretation. If no deal is the only option, it's perfectly simple, put it to a public vote. If not why not? Because you don't want No Deal on the ballot........and you'll just ignore the result if Leave win again........So another vote is pointless *-) .......... I'm talking about no deal vs remain on the ballot ffs! How can it not be on the ballot if it's the only choice vs remain. If there is no deal and leaving with nothing is the only option then are you really saying that Johnson should decide that on his own? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted September 22, 2019 Share Posted September 22, 2019 747 - 2019-09-21 1:21 PM........................….What I strenuously object to is the aftermath and actions of those who felt somehow cheated by the result. The net effect might culminate in a quasi Communist Government which will wreck what is left of the country. But, you can't bang on about democracy and then make remarks such as the above. If such a government were elected, it would be the result of a democratic election, would it not? That would mean that a majority of votes cast in sufficient constituencies resulted in the quasi communist party having the largest number of MPs, and so the right to seek to form a government. That is merely the political reverse of the position in which Mrs May found herself after the 2017 general election. If that was sauce for the goose, should it not equally be sauce for the gander? In terms of your somewhat hysterical last sentence above, you seem to be saying that only right wing governments should ever be elected, because they represent "correct" thinking. The point of elections is that the elected government can be sent packing after 5 years. If HM opposition does aits job properly in holding HM government to account for its policies and actions, the more loony aspects of whichever party wins will be weeded out. Our present problems are the result of too many political lightweights being selected as candidates for election as MP by both main parties, resulting in governments of political lightweights and, sadly, oppositions of political lightweights to oppose them. Who selects the candidates? The members of the local constituency parties. If you see fault, at least look under your nose for its origin. Someone selects these lightweights, and they seem to me to do that because they like to choose people just like themselves, rather then people who will do as our politicians are supposed to do, and put the best interests of their constituency above all other considerations save the over-riding national interest: and in that equation, party comes last. They have access to information and researchers that no ordinary Joe can get close to. They are there to analyse, judge, and decide, not to behave like a group of sycophants. Then, you won't get the head bangers on either side of the political spectrum able to exercise greater influence than their collective value justifies. Forget your party allegiances, and just look critically and objectively at what we presently have in parliament. Where are the men and women of stature? Of course there are some, but they are all too few. Who on earth does one vote for at present? The left wing nonentity, or the right wing nonentity? Something is truly rotten in the state of Britain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archiesgrandad Posted September 22, 2019 Share Posted September 22, 2019 But Brian, we had a referendum and by the standards by which we operate our democracy the majority of people said that they wanted to leave the EU. We then had a general election and by the standards by which we operate our democracy Theresa May was leader of the party that had the greater number of seats in the new parliament and was asked to form a government. Our problem now is that people who's views did not prevail seem to want to introduce a new measure for democracy so that they can put aside those decisions that they don't want and prevent our democracy from working unless it gives them what they want. If you allow them to succeed then when we have another referendum, or general election why would those people whose views did not prevail not seize the precedent you seem to support and reject whatever the outcome again.The outcome would be chaos. AGD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
747 Posted September 22, 2019 Share Posted September 22, 2019 Me? Hysterical? Have you been on the Port wine again? It would be only too easy to end up with a Far left Government, probably much more so than a Far Right one. For instance Brian, do you know how much inroad Momentum has made into the grass roots of the Labour Party? The bullying and intimidation to put off longstanding Labour Councillors and install their left wing mates? Look no further than this weekend at the Labour Party Conference. These people need to be outed for what they are doing to the Labour Party. The anti Semitic furore in the Labour Party seems to have been just a smokescreen to attract attention and take it away from elsewhere. The fella making policy for Labour (and therefore complicit with Momentum) is a Far Left Jewish chap called Lansman. Look him up online and wonder about so called anti Semitism. It doesn't add up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barryd999 Posted September 23, 2019 Share Posted September 23, 2019 747 - 2019-09-22 11:48 PM Me? Hysterical? Have you been on the Port wine again? It would be only too easy to end up with a Far left Government, probably much more so than a Far Right one. For instance Brian, do you know how much inroad Momentum has made into the grass roots of the Labour Party? The bullying and intimidation to put off longstanding Labour Councillors and install their left wing mates? Look no further than this weekend at the Labour Party Conference. These people need to be outed for what they are doing to the Labour Party. The anti Semitic furore in the Labour Party seems to have been just a smokescreen to attract attention and take it away from elsewhere. The fella making policy for Labour (and therefore complicit with Momentum) is a Far Left Jewish chap called Lansman. Look him up online and wonder about so called anti Semitism. It doesn't add up. It's the chaos of Brexit that could potentially deliver this commie government you fear though. What's happened to the tories is no better. They are lurching to the right. Did you see the program on c4 about then at 11pm last night? Jeezas! It's out of control. They all absulotely hate each other. This country Is in serious trouble now IMO with either party at the helm and it's all down to this chaotic act of self harm we inflicted on ourselves in 2016. The future just looks bleak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted September 23, 2019 Share Posted September 23, 2019 Barryd999 - 2019-09-23 9:12 AM 747 - 2019-09-22 11:48 PM Me? Hysterical? Have you been on the Port wine again? It would be only too easy to end up with a Far left Government, probably much more so than a Far Right one. For instance Brian, do you know how much inroad Momentum has made into the grass roots of the Labour Party? The bullying and intimidation to put off longstanding Labour Councillors and install their left wing mates? Look no further than this weekend at the Labour Party Conference. These people need to be outed for what they are doing to the Labour Party. The anti Semitic furore in the Labour Party seems to have been just a smokescreen to attract attention and take it away from elsewhere. The fella making policy for Labour (and therefore complicit with Momentum) is a Far Left Jewish chap called Lansman. Look him up online and wonder about so called anti Semitism. It doesn't add up. It's the chaos of Brexit that could potentially deliver this commie government you fear though. What's happened to the tories is no better. They are lurching to the right. Did you see the program on c4 about then at 11pm last night? Jeezas! It's out of control. They all absulotely hate each other. This country Is in serious trouble now IMO with either party at the helm and it's all down to this chaotic act of self harm we inflicted on ourselves in 2016. The future just looks bleak. Judging by the polls ;-) ............. It wont be Joe Public putting Commie Corbyn in No 10........It'll be Parliament who will install him via a vote of no confidence *-) ......... It will also be Parliament who will be responsible for causing the subsequent run on the pound and a financial crash worse than 2008 by doing so 8-) ........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted September 23, 2019 Share Posted September 23, 2019 Archiesgrandad - 2019-09-22 11:42 PM But Brian, we had a referendum and by the standards by which we operate our democracy the majority of people said that they wanted to leave the EU. We then had a general election and by the standards by which we operate our democracy Theresa May was leader of the party that had the greater number of seats in the new parliament and was asked to form a government. Our problem now is that people who's views did not prevail seem to want to introduce a new measure for democracy so that they can put aside those decisions that they don't want and prevent our democracy from working unless it gives them what they want. If you allow them to succeed then when we have another referendum, or general election why would those people whose views did not prevail not seize the precedent you seem to support and reject whatever the outcome again.The outcome would be chaos. AGD All fair enough, except for what I see as one important omission in your argument. Those who want Brexit want Brexit, that is clear enough. Those who want remain do not want remain for its own sake, but because they are persuaded by expert opinion that any form of Brexit will damage the UK economy, with a "hard" (i.e. no agreement) Brexit inflicting the most damage. That means that the great majority of people in the UK are going to find that their standard of living falls, with greater poverty, greater unemployment, lower tax yield, and further reduced government expenditure (or, as the present government proposes, a huge hike in borrowing to be able to increase government spending in the popular areas, with reduced capability of being able to repay the debt. Long term that threatens the value of that £, so doing further damage). All of the above concerns come from credible sources, yet Brexiters wave them away as "project fear", while being unable to point to alternative economic scenarios that say otherwise. So the Brexiters do not convince the remainers that they have anything other than prejudice or blind optimism to bring to the party. I do not want to see the UK economy damaged, the more so when, apart from any other consideration, it has barely recovered from the aftermath of the 2008 crash. So yes, there may be political turmoil if the referendum vote is summarily over-ruled, but set aside the turmoil that seems to me inevitable when those who voted Brexit, but did not expect to find themselves worse off as a consequence, find that they are, indeed, worse off as a consequence, begin to complain that they have been misled and abused and were not properly advised what Brexit really meant. The solution, IMO, has to be to revoke the Article 50 notification, on a promise to investigate people's dislikes of the EU, and to use the evidence from that investigation to either explain where people's dislikes are mistaken, or to get the causes of their dislikes remedied. Then, after that process completes, hold a further referendum on an informed basis, with a requirement for a conclusive majority (personally, I would set that at 51% of the electorate, others will favour alternative figures :-)). I'm not arguing against those who hold firm, well founded, views who voted Brexit, just with those whose views are not well founded, of whom there seem to be many. It has become politically incorrect to deign to suggest that many voted Brexit on the basis of misunderstanding, yet many who have given their reasons for ding so, go on to prove that that had indeed not understood what thy were really voting to impose on their fellow countrymen and women. Pride, understandably, intervenes when challenged over their understanding of the facts, so we seem to be condemned to make one of the biggest errors in our national history on the mere basis of pride, and a sense of lost enfranchisement. I understand both, but neither is a good reason to inflict lasting economic and political damage on an entire country. That is why I continue to argue against Brexit. If anyone can produce the evidence that I am wrong I will take it seriously, but I have not seen a single, rationally based, well founded, pro-Brexit argument in the entre period since the referendum campaigns began. What is one supposed to do when confronted with a decision that carries such serious implications for our national well-being? Just say OK, have it your own way, as one might with a recalcitrant child that risks burning itself, or try to prevent the inevitable? Over! :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barryd999 Posted September 23, 2019 Share Posted September 23, 2019 pelmetman - 2019-09-23 9:22 AM Barryd999 - 2019-09-23 9:12 AM 747 - 2019-09-22 11:48 PM Me? Hysterical? Have you been on the Port wine again? It would be only too easy to end up with a Far left Government, probably much more so than a Far Right one. For instance Brian, do you know how much inroad Momentum has made into the grass roots of the Labour Party? The bullying and intimidation to put off longstanding Labour Councillors and install their left wing mates? Look no further than this weekend at the Labour Party Conference. These people need to be outed for what they are doing to the Labour Party. The anti Semitic furore in the Labour Party seems to have been just a smokescreen to attract attention and take it away from elsewhere. The fella making policy for Labour (and therefore complicit with Momentum) is a Far Left Jewish chap called Lansman. Look him up online and wonder about so called anti Semitism. It doesn't add up. It's the chaos of Brexit that could potentially deliver this commie government you fear though. What's happened to the tories is no better. They are lurching to the right. Did you see the program on c4 about then at 11pm last night? Jeezas! It's out of control. They all absulotely hate each other. This country Is in serious trouble now IMO with either party at the helm and it's all down to this chaotic act of self harm we inflicted on ourselves in 2016. The future just looks bleak. Judging by the polls ;-) ............. It wont be Joe Public putting Commie Corbyn in No 10........It'll be Parliament who will install him via a vote of no confidence *-) ......... It will also be Parliament who will be responsible for causing the subsequent run on the pound and a financial crash worse than 2008 by doing so 8-) ........... All if which would never have happened without the Pandoras box of Brexit being opened. It will shape everything now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archiesgrandad Posted September 23, 2019 Share Posted September 23, 2019 I think that the real problem is that no one knows how our exit from the EU is going to affect us, absolutely no one. Another thing that no one knows is how we and the EU would have fared had we not held a referendum, again, absolutely no one. At best the pundits are guessing about it, or there may be people whose motives are more questionable and will say whatever they think might further their cause, maybe some are incurable optimists and can't believe that it won't all be OK, but absolutely no one knows. So what do we know? We know that most of the countries in the Eurozone are in financial trouble, and the the Eurobank is printing money, ie Quantitive Easing. We know that the UK imports vast quantities of motorvehicles, fresh food, heavy engineering, and heaven knows what else from the EU. We know that the UK can find replacements for all these things from other parts of the world without too much difficulty. We know that the greater part of the goods and services that the UK exports do not go to the EU. Where do we stand now?, I don't know Brian and neither do you. You have chosen to listen to those who for whatever reason have told you a tale of impending gloom and doom. You chose to believe that the future outside the EU is so dire that you are not concerned about the breakdown of democracy, and the destruction of our way of life, you apparently are not concerned about how the EU will treat us if we are forced to stay in. That Sir is your choice, and I will defend your right to say and think so, that is the British way of democratic life, but there are no facts on which you can base your opinions, because no one knows. I still hope that common sense will prevail and that we will find a reasonable way forward, and if things get a bit tough in the aftermath of Brexiit we will understand that there will be other factors that will have contributed to those difficulties. I suppose that the thing that I hope for is that people will believe a little less of the outpourings of the media, and spend a little time thinking about what commonsense might indicate if they open their minds to it. I will leave you with a little quote from Kipling, " I had six honest working men , they taught me all I knew. Their names were "What" and "Where" and "When" and "Why" and "How" and "Who". They are still available for those who wish to use them. AGD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumpstart Posted September 23, 2019 Author Share Posted September 23, 2019 Brian Kirby - 2019-09-23 5:41 PM Archiesgrandad - 2019-09-22 11:42 PM But Brian, we had a referendum and by the standards by which we operate our democracy the majority of people said that they wanted to leave the EU. We then had a general election and by the standards by which we operate our democracy Theresa May was leader of the party that had the greater number of seats in the new parliament and was asked to form a government. Our problem now is that people who's views did not prevail seem to want to introduce a new measure for democracy so that they can put aside those decisions that they don't want and prevent our democracy from working unless it gives them what they want. If you allow them to succeed then when we have another referendum, or general election why would those people whose views did not prevail not seize the precedent you seem to support and reject whatever the outcome again.The outcome would be chaos. AGD All fair enough, except for what I see as one important omission in your argument. Those who want Brexit want Brexit, that is clear enough. Those who want remain do not want remain for its own sake, but because they are persuaded by expert opinion that any form of Brexit will damage the UK economy, with a "hard" (i.e. no agreement) Brexit inflicting the most damage. That means that the great majority of people in the UK are going to find that their standard of living falls, with greater poverty, greater unemployment, lower tax yield, and further reduced government expenditure (or, as the present government proposes, a huge hike in borrowing to be able to increase government spending in the popular areas, with reduced capability of being able to repay the debt. Long term that threatens the value of that £, so doing further damage). All of the above concerns come from credible sources, yet Brexiters wave them away as "project fear", while being unable to point to alternative economic scenarios that say otherwise. So the Brexiters do not convince the remainers that they have anything other than prejudice or blind optimism to bring to the party. I do not want to see the UK economy damaged, the more so when, apart from any other consideration, it has barely recovered from the aftermath of the 2008 crash. So yes, there may be political turmoil if the referendum vote is summarily over-ruled, but set aside the turmoil that seems to me inevitable when those who voted Brexit, but did not expect to find themselves worse off as a consequence, find that they are, indeed, worse off as a consequence, begin to complain that they have been misled and abused and were not properly advised what Brexit really meant. The solution, IMO, has to be to revoke the Article 50 notification, on a promise to investigate people's dislikes of the EU, and to use the evidence from that investigation to either explain where people's dislikes are mistaken, or to get the causes of their dislikes remedied. Then, after that process completes, hold a further referendum on an informed basis, with a requirement for a conclusive majority (personally, I would set that at 51% of the electorate, others will favour alternative figures :-)). I'm not arguing against those who hold firm, well founded, views who voted Brexit, just with those whose views are not well founded, of whom there seem to be many. It has become politically incorrect to deign to suggest that many voted Brexit on the basis of misunderstanding, yet many who have given their reasons for ding so, go on to prove that that had indeed not understood what thy were really voting to impose on their fellow countrymen and women. Pride, understandably, intervenes when challenged over their understanding of the facts, so we seem to be condemned to make one of the biggest errors in our national history on the mere basis of pride, and a sense of lost enfranchisement. I understand both, but neither is a good reason to inflict lasting economic and political damage on an entire country. That is why I continue to argue against Brexit. If anyone can produce the evidence that I am wrong I will take it seriously, but I have not seen a single, rationally based, well founded, pro-Brexit argument in the entre period since the referendum campaigns began. What is one supposed to do when confronted with a decision that carries such serious implications for our national well-being? Just say OK, have it your own way, as one might with a recalcitrant child that risks burning itself, or try to prevent the inevitable? Over! :-D Well,the very same points you argue here that are likely to adversely affect this country are the same for when a Labour Government gets elected. So even though it is well known what the likely effect of them is people still vote for them. There may well be bitter pills to swallow next year but that is not to say that the future is bleak. The truth is we don’t know. Personally I don’t see the Eu lasting. Looking at the present Labour conference I wonder if they could ever get elected, but then the alternatives don’t look rosy either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted September 23, 2019 Share Posted September 23, 2019 jumpstart - 2019-09-23 6:59 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-09-23 5:41 PM Archiesgrandad - 2019-09-22 11:42 PM But Brian, we had a referendum and by the standards by which we operate our democracy the majority of people said that they wanted to leave the EU. We then had a general election and by the standards by which we operate our democracy Theresa May was leader of the party that had the greater number of seats in the new parliament and was asked to form a government. Our problem now is that people who's views did not prevail seem to want to introduce a new measure for democracy so that they can put aside those decisions that they don't want and prevent our democracy from working unless it gives them what they want. If you allow them to succeed then when we have another referendum, or general election why would those people whose views did not prevail not seize the precedent you seem to support and reject whatever the outcome again.The outcome would be chaos. AGD All fair enough, except for what I see as one important omission in your argument. Those who want Brexit want Brexit, that is clear enough. Those who want remain do not want remain for its own sake, but because they are persuaded by expert opinion that any form of Brexit will damage the UK economy, with a "hard" (i.e. no agreement) Brexit inflicting the most damage. That means that the great majority of people in the UK are going to find that their standard of living falls, with greater poverty, greater unemployment, lower tax yield, and further reduced government expenditure (or, as the present government proposes, a huge hike in borrowing to be able to increase government spending in the popular areas, with reduced capability of being able to repay the debt. Long term that threatens the value of that £, so doing further damage). All of the above concerns come from credible sources, yet Brexiters wave them away as "project fear", while being unable to point to alternative economic scenarios that say otherwise. So the Brexiters do not convince the remainers that they have anything other than prejudice or blind optimism to bring to the party. I do not want to see the UK economy damaged, the more so when, apart from any other consideration, it has barely recovered from the aftermath of the 2008 crash. So yes, there may be political turmoil if the referendum vote is summarily over-ruled, but set aside the turmoil that seems to me inevitable when those who voted Brexit, but did not expect to find themselves worse off as a consequence, find that they are, indeed, worse off as a consequence, begin to complain that they have been misled and abused and were not properly advised what Brexit really meant. The solution, IMO, has to be to revoke the Article 50 notification, on a promise to investigate people's dislikes of the EU, and to use the evidence from that investigation to either explain where people's dislikes are mistaken, or to get the causes of their dislikes remedied. Then, after that process completes, hold a further referendum on an informed basis, with a requirement for a conclusive majority (personally, I would set that at 51% of the electorate, others will favour alternative figures :-)). I'm not arguing against those who hold firm, well founded, views who voted Brexit, just with those whose views are not well founded, of whom there seem to be many. It has become politically incorrect to deign to suggest that many voted Brexit on the basis of misunderstanding, yet many who have given their reasons for ding so, go on to prove that that had indeed not understood what thy were really voting to impose on their fellow countrymen and women. Pride, understandably, intervenes when challenged over their understanding of the facts, so we seem to be condemned to make one of the biggest errors in our national history on the mere basis of pride, and a sense of lost enfranchisement. I understand both, but neither is a good reason to inflict lasting economic and political damage on an entire country. That is why I continue to argue against Brexit. If anyone can produce the evidence that I am wrong I will take it seriously, but I have not seen a single, rationally based, well founded, pro-Brexit argument in the entre period since the referendum campaigns began. What is one supposed to do when confronted with a decision that carries such serious implications for our national well-being? Just say OK, have it your own way, as one might with a recalcitrant child that risks burning itself, or try to prevent the inevitable? Over! :-D Well,the very same points you argue here that are likely to adversely affect this country are the same for when a Labour Government gets elected. So even though it is well known what the likely effect of them is people still vote for them. There may well be bitter pills to swallow next year but that is not to say that the future is bleak. The truth is we don’t know. Personally I don’t see the Eu lasting. Looking at the present Labour conference I wonder if they could ever get elected, but then the alternatives don’t look rosy either. The polls are very clear on our very Un United Kingdom wanting it over .......... The current choice is whether the folk want the current Impasse to continue :-| ......... So we have a choice of another referendum which will at best.......according to Remoaner press ;-) ...... Mean a smaller win than us Brexiteers got the first time around (lol) ........ Or an election which will decide between a hung Parliament and a Pro Brexit Parliament :D ........ Have to say I'm on the cusp 8-) ......... Do I want the bun fight over or not? :D ....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted September 23, 2019 Share Posted September 23, 2019 jumpstart - 2019-09-23 6:59 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-09-23 5:41 PM Archiesgrandad - 2019-09-22 11:42 PM But Brian, we had a referendum and by the standards by which we operate our democracy the majority of people said that they wanted to leave the EU. We then had a general election and by the standards by which we operate our democracy Theresa May was leader of the party that had the greater number of seats in the new parliament and was asked to form a government. Our problem now is that people who's views did not prevail seem to want to introduce a new measure for democracy so that they can put aside those decisions that they don't want and prevent our democracy from working unless it gives them what they want. If you allow them to succeed then when we have another referendum, or general election why would those people whose views did not prevail not seize the precedent you seem to support and reject whatever the outcome again.The outcome would be chaos. AGD All fair enough, except for what I see as one important omission in your argument. Those who want Brexit want Brexit, that is clear enough. Those who want remain do not want remain for its own sake, but because they are persuaded by expert opinion that any form of Brexit will damage the UK economy, with a "hard" (i.e. no agreement) Brexit inflicting the most damage. That means that the great majority of people in the UK are going to find that their standard of living falls, with greater poverty, greater unemployment, lower tax yield, and further reduced government expenditure (or, as the present government proposes, a huge hike in borrowing to be able to increase government spending in the popular areas, with reduced capability of being able to repay the debt. Long term that threatens the value of that £, so doing further damage). All of the above concerns come from credible sources, yet Brexiters wave them away as "project fear", while being unable to point to alternative economic scenarios that say otherwise. So the Brexiters do not convince the remainers that they have anything other than prejudice or blind optimism to bring to the party. I do not want to see the UK economy damaged, the more so when, apart from any other consideration, it has barely recovered from the aftermath of the 2008 crash. So yes, there may be political turmoil if the referendum vote is summarily over-ruled, but set aside the turmoil that seems to me inevitable when those who voted Brexit, but did not expect to find themselves worse off as a consequence, find that they are, indeed, worse off as a consequence, begin to complain that they have been misled and abused and were not properly advised what Brexit really meant. The solution, IMO, has to be to revoke the Article 50 notification, on a promise to investigate people's dislikes of the EU, and to use the evidence from that investigation to either explain where people's dislikes are mistaken, or to get the causes of their dislikes remedied. Then, after that process completes, hold a further referendum on an informed basis, with a requirement for a conclusive majority (personally, I would set that at 51% of the electorate, others will favour alternative figures :-)). I'm not arguing against those who hold firm, well founded, views who voted Brexit, just with those whose views are not well founded, of whom there seem to be many. It has become politically incorrect to deign to suggest that many voted Brexit on the basis of misunderstanding, yet many who have given their reasons for ding so, go on to prove that that had indeed not understood what thy were really voting to impose on their fellow countrymen and women. Pride, understandably, intervenes when challenged over their understanding of the facts, so we seem to be condemned to make one of the biggest errors in our national history on the mere basis of pride, and a sense of lost enfranchisement. I understand both, but neither is a good reason to inflict lasting economic and political damage on an entire country. That is why I continue to argue against Brexit. If anyone can produce the evidence that I am wrong I will take it seriously, but I have not seen a single, rationally based, well founded, pro-Brexit argument in the entre period since the referendum campaigns began. What is one supposed to do when confronted with a decision that carries such serious implications for our national well-being? Just say OK, have it your own way, as one might with a recalcitrant child that risks burning itself, or try to prevent the inevitable? Over! :-D Well,the very same points you argue here that are likely to adversely affect this country are the same for when a Labour Government gets elected. So even though it is well known what the likely effect of them is people still vote for them. There may well be bitter pills to swallow next year but that is not to say that the future is bleak. The truth is we don’t know. Personally I don’t see the Eu lasting. Looking at the present Labour conference I wonder if they could ever get elected, but then the alternatives don’t look rosy either. Government term of office is just five years and if you don't like whoever is in, you can vote them out. Exiting the EU is for life with no chance of, "oh dear we got it wrong, can we come back please?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted September 23, 2019 Share Posted September 23, 2019 Barryd999 - 2019-09-23 6:40 PM pelmetman - 2019-09-23 9:22 AM Barryd999 - 2019-09-23 9:12 AM 747 - 2019-09-22 11:48 PM Me? Hysterical? Have you been on the Port wine again? It would be only too easy to end up with a Far left Government, probably much more so than a Far Right one. For instance Brian, do you know how much inroad Momentum has made into the grass roots of the Labour Party? The bullying and intimidation to put off longstanding Labour Councillors and install their left wing mates? Look no further than this weekend at the Labour Party Conference. These people need to be outed for what they are doing to the Labour Party. The anti Semitic furore in the Labour Party seems to have been just a smokescreen to attract attention and take it away from elsewhere. The fella making policy for Labour (and therefore complicit with Momentum) is a Far Left Jewish chap called Lansman. Look him up online and wonder about so called anti Semitism. It doesn't add up. It's the chaos of Brexit that could potentially deliver this commie government you fear though. What's happened to the tories is no better. They are lurching to the right. Did you see the program on c4 about then at 11pm last night? Jeezas! It's out of control. They all absulotely hate each other. This country Is in serious trouble now IMO with either party at the helm and it's all down to this chaotic act of self harm we inflicted on ourselves in 2016. The future just looks bleak. Judging by the polls ;-) ............. It wont be Joe Public putting Commie Corbyn in No 10........It'll be Parliament who will install him via a vote of no confidence *-) ......... It will also be Parliament who will be responsible for causing the subsequent run on the pound and a financial crash worse than 2008 by doing so 8-) ........... All if which would never have happened without the Pandoras box of Brexit being opened. It will shape everything now. Ah yes, the law of unintended consequence. If you create chaos out of order, don't complain what it bites back. :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted September 23, 2019 Share Posted September 23, 2019 Archiesgrandad - 2019-09-23 6:43 PM I think that the real problem is that no one knows how our exit from the EU is going to affect us, absolutely no one. Another thing that no one knows is how we and the EU would have fared had we not held a referendum, again, absolutely no one. At best the pundits are guessing about it, or there may be people whose motives are more questionable and will say whatever they think might further their cause, maybe some are incurable optimists and can't believe that it won't all be OK, but absolutely no one knows. So what do we know? We know that most of the countries in the Eurozone are in financial trouble, and the the Eurobank is printing money, ie Quantitive Easing. We know that the UK imports vast quantities of motorvehicles, fresh food, heavy engineering, and heaven knows what else from the EU. We know that the UK can find replacements for all these things from other parts of the world without too much difficulty. We know that the greater part of the goods and services that the UK exports do not go to the EU. Where do we stand now?, I don't know Brian and neither do you. You have chosen to listen to those who for whatever reason have told you a tale of impending gloom and doom. You chose to believe that the future outside the EU is so dire that you are not concerned about the breakdown of democracy, and the destruction of our way of life, you apparently are not concerned about how the EU will treat us if we are forced to stay in. That Sir is your choice, and I will defend your right to say and think so, that is the British way of democratic life, but there are no facts on which you can base your opinions, because no one knows. I still hope that common sense will prevail and that we will find a reasonable way forward, and if things get a bit tough in the aftermath of Brexiit we will understand that there will be other factors that will have contributed to those difficulties. I suppose that the thing that I hope for is that people will believe a little less of the outpourings of the media, and spend a little time thinking about what commonsense might indicate if they open their minds to it. I will leave you with a little quote from Kipling, " I had six honest working men , they taught me all I knew. Their names were "What" and "Where" and "When" and "Why" and "How" and "Who". They are still available for those who wish to use them. AGD Won't reply at length, but you are putting the advice of almost all reputable and respected economists to one side to maintain that view. Not pundits, not the media, who merely report the findings of the economists, but the economists themselves. Casting aside such advice because it is inconvenient is not rational. If you visit your doctor and he gives you advice you consider disagreeable, do you nevertheless take it, or reject it? Economists are to economies what doctors are in the field of health. They spend their lives studying economies as doctors study human physiology and its ailments and their cures. Neither is infallible, but when almost an entire profession (including from other parts of the world) is telling you the same thing: that you are making a big mistake and that your chosen course is going to hurt you, isn't it wiser to take that advice seriously that to dismiss it out of hand? Where are the economists who are saying Brexit will bring economic benefits to Britain. These are the people who, in the context of Brexit, have asked all Kipling's questions, and then answered them in considerable detail. So, to my satisfaction, have I. To say no-one "knows" is a misleading trope, because that definition of "knowledge" relies on the notion that one cannot "know" before the event what its outcome may be. That is not at all the case. For events that lie in the future, where risk is involved, it is normal in all fields to analyse and quantify the foreseeable risks, and then to evaluate how to avert them. One is then proceeding on an informed basis. On Brexit the analysis is in, and the advice is that leave is inevitably harmful, with greater downsides than remain. Politics won't change that outcome. The real political backlash won't arise if Brexiters are disappointed at Brexit being shelved or abandoned, it will arise if Brexit takes place and they begin to see what they have inflicted on themselves and their country, and they then start asking why they weren't told - and get the answer that they were, but chose to ignore that advice. So ask yourself three simple questions. If you are proved wrong by events, and the economists are proved right, what is lost? Then ask if I am proved wrong by events, and the economists are proved wrong, what is lost? Then ask under which scenario does anyone suffer actual, material, loss? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumpstart Posted September 24, 2019 Author Share Posted September 24, 2019 Are these that same economists who didn’t predict the last economic crash? It is not written in stone that we would not be allowed to rejoin if the populous wanted it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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