747 Posted September 24, 2019 Share Posted September 24, 2019 jumpstart - 2019-09-24 7:00 AM Are these that same economists who didn’t predict the last economic crash? It is not written in stone that we would not be allowed to rejoin if the populous wanted it. Correct. They can't see disaster looming until it has happened ... ... yet they can clearly see disaster about to happen when it suits them ... even though their forecasts of a YES vote would cause all kinds of drama immediately. That was 3 years ago and they got it dramatically wrong ... again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archiesgrandad Posted September 24, 2019 Share Posted September 24, 2019 OK, so all this is justified by the infallibility of Economists, and the reasonableness of political extremists. I should be so relieved. AGD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumpstart Posted September 24, 2019 Author Share Posted September 24, 2019 It’s not justified by anything,it’s just wot people voted for. Just like if Labour gets in again ...the country gets fu.ked...but that’s wot people voted for.....init. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fast Pat Posted September 24, 2019 Share Posted September 24, 2019 jumpstart - 2019-09-24 8:50 PM It’s not justified by anything,it’s just wot people voted for. Just like if Labour gets in again ...the country gets fu.ked...but that’s wot people voted for.....init. Theresa May found in contempt of parliament. Boris Johnson acting illegally. Jeremy Corbyn wearing a coat instead of a jacket at the Cenotaph. Dangerous man, that Corbyn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumpstart Posted September 25, 2019 Author Share Posted September 25, 2019 Fast Pat - 2019-09-24 10:13 PM jumpstart - 2019-09-24 8:50 PM It’s not justified by anything,it’s just wot people voted for. Just like if Labour gets in again ...the country gets fu.ked...but that’s wot people voted for.....init. Theresa May found in contempt of parliament. Boris Johnson acting illegally. Jeremy Corbyn wearing a coat instead of a jacket at the Cenotaph. Dangerous man, that Corbyn. You obviously haven’t been paying attention to the Labour conference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted September 26, 2019 Share Posted September 26, 2019 jumpstart - 2019-09-24 7:00 AM Are these that same economists who didn’t predict the last economic crash? It is not written in stone that we would not be allowed to rejoin if the populous wanted it. A crash caused by what, exactly? Go on, I dare you! :-) Who said it was written in stone? But were we to seek to rejoin, would we get such beneficial terms as we now have? What would be the point of leaving, suffering the economic loss, and then re-joining on less favourable terms? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted September 26, 2019 Share Posted September 26, 2019 747 - 2019-09-24 5:17 PM jumpstart - 2019-09-24 7:00 AM Are these that same economists who didn’t predict the last economic crash? It is not written in stone that we would not be allowed to rejoin if the populous wanted it. Correct. They can't see disaster looming until it has happened ... ... yet they can clearly see disaster about to happen when it suits them ... even though their forecasts of a YES vote would cause all kinds of drama immediately. That was 3 years ago and they got it dramatically wrong ... again. Incorrect! The presumption at the time was that if we voted to leave, we would leave. The consequences of the vote could not arise unless we left. Surely that must be obvious to anyone? All the actual vote did was to cause Sterling to lose value. That was the financial world's verdict on Britain's decision. Had the financial world thought leaving was a hot economic ticket, Sterling would have risen. I assume you never watch weather forecasts either: they have higher failure rate than economic forecasts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted September 26, 2019 Share Posted September 26, 2019 jumpstart - 2019-09-24 8:50 PM It’s not justified by anything,it’s just wot people voted for. Just like if Labour gets in again ...the country gets fu.ked...but that’s wot people voted for.....init. Yep! You get the government you deserve. Simples! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
747 Posted September 26, 2019 Share Posted September 26, 2019 Brian Kirby - 2019-09-26 5:47 PM 747 - 2019-09-24 5:17 PM jumpstart - 2019-09-24 7:00 AM Are these that same economists who didn’t predict the last economic crash? It is not written in stone that we would not be allowed to rejoin if the populous wanted it. Correct. They can't see disaster looming until it has happened ... ... yet they can clearly see disaster about to happen when it suits them ... even though their forecasts of a YES vote would cause all kinds of drama immediately. That was 3 years ago and they got it dramatically wrong ... again. Incorrect! The presumption at the time was that if we voted to leave, we would leave. The consequences of the vote could not arise unless we left. Surely that must be obvious to anyone? All the actual vote did was to cause Sterling to lose value. That was the financial world's verdict on Britain's decision. Had the financial world thought leaving was a hot economic ticket, Sterling would have risen. I assume you never watch weather forecasts either: they have higher failure rate than economic forecasts. I believe it is you who is incorrect but there is always the chance it was the Media putting a spin on the forecasts. As for the devaluation of the Pound, it did no harm to the economy which has been performing better than Europe, with the possible exception of Germany (although it is now doing badly and is in recession). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumpstart Posted September 26, 2019 Author Share Posted September 26, 2019 Brian Kirby - 2019-09-26 5:42 PM jumpstart - 2019-09-24 7:00 AM Are these that same economists who didn’t predict the last economic crash? It is not written in stone that we would not be allowed to rejoin if the populous wanted it. A crash caused by what, exactly? Go on, I dare you! :-) Who said it was written in stone? But were we to seek to rejoin, would we get such beneficial terms as we now have? What would be the point of leaving, suffering the economic loss, and then re-joining on less favourable terms? The Eu would jump at re admitting us , though I would think it wouldn’t be necessary. Economists are like weather forecasters,....it’s going to bad ....no hang on ....no it’s bad...oh it’s ok now ..well never expected that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted September 26, 2019 Share Posted September 26, 2019 747 - 2019-09-26 6:17 PM it did no harm to the economy which has been performing better than Europe, . Is that why the pound fell against the Euro *-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted September 26, 2019 Share Posted September 26, 2019 jumpstart - 2019-09-26 7:08 PM The Eu would jump at re admitting us Oh Sure, They would all love to have BoJo and Farage back to put a spanner in their works *-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
747 Posted September 26, 2019 Share Posted September 26, 2019 John52 - 2019-09-26 8:00 PM 747 - 2019-09-26 6:17 PM it did no harm to the economy which has been performing better than Europe, . Is that why the pound fell against the Euro *-) Our economy has been doing very well. The value of the Pound dropped. Now then ... as Rolf used to say, "Can you see what it is yet"? No, probably not as your grasp of economics seems to be nonexistent. I could tell you but the trouble is ... I cannot abide fools. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted September 26, 2019 Share Posted September 26, 2019 Brian Kirby - 2019-09-26 5:42 PM jumpstart - 2019-09-24 7:00 AM Are these that same economists who didn’t predict the last economic crash? It is not written in stone that we would not be allowed to rejoin if the populous wanted it. A crash caused by what, exactly? Go on, I dare you! :-) Who said it was written in stone? But were we to seek to rejoin, would we get such beneficial terms as we now have? What would be the point of leaving, suffering the economic loss, and then re-joining on less favourable terms? Less favourable terms?????????????????? (lol) (lol) (lol) .......... I'd happily rejoin on the same terms as.......... "Hungary, Lithuania, Greece and Malta which all receive much more money from the EU than they pay in themselves" >:-) ............. https://inews.co.uk/news/charts/much-uk-pays-eu-much-get-back-537626 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumpstart Posted September 27, 2019 Author Share Posted September 27, 2019 John52 - 2019-09-26 8:01 PM jumpstart - 2019-09-26 7:08 PM The Eu would jump at re admitting us Oh Sure, They would all love to have BoJo and Farage back to put a spanner in their works *-) You need to look ahead. I’m talking about in say10 years time when the Eu reverts back to being just a trading block which is what I voted for in the 70’s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted September 27, 2019 Share Posted September 27, 2019 jumpstart - 2019-09-26 7:08 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-09-26 5:42 PM jumpstart - 2019-09-24 7:00 AM Are these that same economists who didn’t predict the last economic crash? It is not written in stone that we would not be allowed to rejoin if the populous wanted it. A crash caused by what, exactly? Go on, I dare you! :-) Who said it was written in stone? But were we to seek to rejoin, would we get such beneficial terms as we now have? What would be the point of leaving, suffering the economic loss, and then re-joining on less favourable terms? The Eu would jump at re admitting us , though I would think it wouldn’t be necessary. Economists are like weather forecasters,....it’s going to bad ....no hang on ....no it’s bad...oh it’s ok now ..well never expected that. So what, in your opinion, caused the 2008 economic crash? In making the above observation about re-joining the EU, and in view of your opinion of economists, may one ask on what basis you have arrived at the conclusion "it wouldn't be necessary"? It would also be useful to know under what conditions you ithink it might be necessary? The rest is a fair piss take, but it's hardly an argument! :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted September 27, 2019 Share Posted September 27, 2019 jumpstart - 2019-09-27 7:46 AM John52 - 2019-09-26 8:01 PM jumpstart - 2019-09-26 7:08 PM The Eu would jump at re admitting us Oh Sure, They would all love to have BoJo and Farage back to put a spanner in their works *-) You need to look ahead. I’m talking about in say10 years time when the Eu reverts back to being just a trading block which is what I voted for in the 70’s. I hesitate to say this, but what you voted for back in the 70's is exactly what you have now. It seems you thought the EEC, as it then was, would remain as it then was. Why? Britain is not now the same as it was in the 70's. Look at the history of the EEC, and what it evolved from as an institution. It had been changing ever since it grew out of the European Coal and Steel Community. It was always going to keep changing. That was the package. Our job, in joining, was to influence the ways in which it would continue changing. We did. For example, the single market was a UK proposal. Nothing is static. To expect, or to have expected, something to remain as it was 45 years ago is unrealistic. You may not like the way it has changed, but it was never going to remain the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumpstart Posted September 28, 2019 Author Share Posted September 28, 2019 Brian Kirby - 2019-09-27 9:44 PM jumpstart - 2019-09-26 7:08 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-09-26 5:42 PM jumpstart - 2019-09-24 7:00 AM Are these that same economists who didn’t predict the last economic crash? It is not written in stone that we would not be allowed to rejoin if the populous wanted it. A crash caused by what, exactly? Go on, I dare you! :-) Who said it was written in stone? But were we to seek to rejoin, would we get such beneficial terms as we now have? What would be the point of leaving, suffering the economic loss, and then re-joining on less favourable terms? The Eu would jump at re admitting us , though I would think it wouldn’t be necessary. Economists are like weather forecasters,....it’s going to bad ....no hang on ....no it’s bad...oh it’s ok now ..well never expected that. So what, in your opinion, caused the 2008 economic crash? In making the above observation about re-joining the EU, and in view of your opinion of economists, may one ask on what basis you have arrived at the conclusion "it wouldn't be necessary"? It would also be useful to know under what conditions you ithink it might be necessary? The rest is a fair piss take, but it's hardly an argument! :-D The Eu commissioners have said they would welcome the uk back into the fold at a future date. It could happen. The government could decide to put it to the people again. I think we would flourish as a free trade nation so I don’t see the necessity to rejoin if in fact it’s even still there. Well when did economists ever have a valid argument, opinions vary on the same set of facts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumpstart Posted September 28, 2019 Author Share Posted September 28, 2019 Brian Kirby - 2019-09-27 10:00 PM jumpstart - 2019-09-27 7:46 AM John52 - 2019-09-26 8:01 PM jumpstart - 2019-09-26 7:08 PM The Eu would jump at re admitting us Oh Sure, They would all love to have BoJo and Farage back to put a spanner in their works *-) You need to look ahead. I’m talking about in say10 years time when the Eu reverts back to being just a trading block which is what I voted for in the 70’s. I hesitate to say this, but what you voted for back in the 70's is exactly what you have now. It seems you thought the EEC, as it then was, would remain as it then was. Why? Britain is not now the same as it was in the 70's. Look at the history of the EEC, and what it evolved from as an institution. It had been changing ever since it grew out of the European Coal and Steel Community. It was always going to keep changing. That was the package. Our job, in joining, was to influence the ways in which it would continue changing. We did. For example, the single market was a UK proposal. Nothing is static. To expect, or to have expected, something to remain as it was 45 years ago is unrealistic. You may not like the way it has changed, but it was never going to remain the same. Well I agree ,it is a trading block but it’s not going in the direction I want. But your argument also applies to us now ,why should we just remain in this block if we decide it’s not working as we want it too. I think by leaving we are providing the biggest incentive for the Eu to change . Maybe I will be surprised and in ten years time joining again may be attractive. If it’s still afloat, as you say it’s never going to remain the same. It is not just in the uk where people are unhappy with the Eu direction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumpstart Posted September 28, 2019 Author Share Posted September 28, 2019 Hell ,vote Liberal Brian, then you’ll get what you want. Mind you you’ll probably get a Revolution too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted September 28, 2019 Share Posted September 28, 2019 pelmetman - 2019-09-26 9:56 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-09-26 5:42 PM jumpstart - 2019-09-24 7:00 AM Are these that same economists who didn’t predict the last economic crash? It is not written in stone that we would not be allowed to rejoin if the populous wanted it. A crash caused by what, exactly? Go on, I dare you! :-) Who said it was written in stone? But were we to seek to rejoin, would we get such beneficial terms as we now have? What would be the point of leaving, suffering the economic loss, and then re-joining on less favourable terms? Less favourable terms?????????????????? (lol) (lol) (lol) .......... I'd happily rejoin on the same terms as.......... "Hungary, Lithuania, Greece and Malta which all receive much more money from the EU than they pay in themselves" >:-) ............. https://inews.co.uk/news/charts/much-uk-pays-eu-much-get-back-537626 Bump :D ............ Obviously Brian cant explain how our terms will be less favourable than they are now? >:-) ......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted September 28, 2019 Share Posted September 28, 2019 jumpstart - 2019-09-28 7:39 AM Brian Kirby - 2019-09-27 9:44 PM jumpstart - 2019-09-26 7:08 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-09-26 5:42 PM jumpstart - 2019-09-24 7:00 AM Are these that same economists who didn’t predict the last economic crash? It is not written in stone that we would not be allowed to rejoin if the populous wanted it. A crash caused by what, exactly? Go on, I dare you! :-) Who said it was written in stone? But were we to seek to rejoin, would we get such beneficial terms as we now have? What would be the point of leaving, suffering the economic loss, and then re-joining on less favourable terms? The Eu would jump at re admitting us , though I would think it wouldn’t be necessary. Economists are like weather forecasters,....it’s going to bad ....no hang on ....no it’s bad...oh it’s ok now ..well never expected that. So what, in your opinion, caused the 2008 economic crash? In making the above observation about re-joining the EU, and in view of your opinion of economists, may one ask on what basis you have arrived at the conclusion "it wouldn't be necessary"? It would also be useful to know under what conditions you ithink it might be necessary? The rest is a fair piss take, but it's hardly an argument! :-D 1 The Eu commissioners have said they would welcome the uk back into the fold at a future date. It could happen. 2 The government could decide to put it to the people again. 3 I think we would flourish as a free trade nation so I don’t see the necessity to rejoin if in fact it’s even still there. 4 Well when did economists ever have a valid argument, opinions vary on the same set of facts. 1 Yes, but they have not (nor can they) say on what terms we might be re-admitted. It is highly unlikely that we should, on re-applying, have any bargaining strength to re-implement our various opt-outs (Schengen and Euro especially), and it seems highly improbable that we should be able to re-negotiate the rebate. So, possible, but not realistically probable, and extremely unlikely to be on such favourable terms as we now have. Under those circumstances, unless the UK was in very deep economic doo-doo, I can't see anyone voting to re-join, can you? 2 Yes, and this time they might even decide to ensure that the claims made in the run-up to that vote were reasonably accurate, and issue factual corrections where they were not, and they might ask an intelligent question of the electorate regarding the choices that are actually feasible. 3 You think, yet almost all economic experts disagree with you. So, what is the basis for your opinion? 4 They have valid arguments, on both sides. The problem for Brexiters is that the great majority say that Brexit is a bad idea economically. Of course opinions vary: that is the nature of expert opinion, but they vary only on the severity and detail of the consequences of Brexit, not on the central issue - that the UK economy will shrink. 5 BTW, you still haven't answered my question about the causes of the 2008 crash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted September 28, 2019 Share Posted September 28, 2019 Brian Kirby - 2019-09-28 6:06 PM 1 Yes, but they have not (nor can they) say on what terms we might be re-admitted. It is highly unlikely that we should, on re-applying, have any bargaining strength to re-implement our various opt-outs. What various opt-outs? ;-) ......... Can we currently opt out of being a EU expansionist meal ticket? :-| ........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted September 28, 2019 Share Posted September 28, 2019 pelmetman - 2019-09-28 8:26 AM pelmetman - 2019-09-26 9:56 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-09-26 5:42 PM jumpstart - 2019-09-24 7:00 AM Are these that same economists who didn’t predict the last economic crash? It is not written in stone that we would not be allowed to rejoin if the populous wanted it. A crash caused by what, exactly? Go on, I dare you! :-) Who said it was written in stone? But were we to seek to rejoin, would we get such beneficial terms as we now have? What would be the point of leaving, suffering the economic loss, and then re-joining on less favourable terms? Less favourable terms?????????????????? (lol) (lol) (lol) .......... I'd happily rejoin on the same terms as.......... "Hungary, Lithuania, Greece and Malta which all receive much more money from the EU than they pay in themselves" >:-) ............. https://inews.co.uk/news/charts/much-uk-pays-eu-much-get-back-537626 Bump :D ............ Obviously Brian cant explain how our terms will be less favourable than they are now? >:-) ......... Easy, I'm surprised you don't already know, since you seem to know exactly why we should leave. 1 No rebate. 2 Join Euro. 3 Join Schengen. Those are the terms on which all the later countries have had to join. So, a bit difficult to make an exception for the UK? Especially when our departure, if it happens, will have cost all other EU member states millions. You also seem to overlook the reason why we might want to re-join. If we leave, and the economists turn out to be right and the economy tanks, we shall be wanting to re-join to save our economic bacon. Good bargaining hand when wanting back all our old opt outs and rebate? In your dreams, baby! :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted September 28, 2019 Share Posted September 28, 2019 Brian Kirby - 2019-09-28 6:15 PM pelmetman - 2019-09-28 8:26 AM pelmetman - 2019-09-26 9:56 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-09-26 5:42 PM jumpstart - 2019-09-24 7:00 AM Are these that same economists who didn’t predict the last economic crash? It is not written in stone that we would not be allowed to rejoin if the populous wanted it. A crash caused by what, exactly? Go on, I dare you! :-) Who said it was written in stone? But were we to seek to rejoin, would we get such beneficial terms as we now have? What would be the point of leaving, suffering the economic loss, and then re-joining on less favourable terms? Less favourable terms?????????????????? (lol) (lol) (lol) .......... I'd happily rejoin on the same terms as.......... "Hungary, Lithuania, Greece and Malta which all receive much more money from the EU than they pay in themselves" >:-) ............. https://inews.co.uk/news/charts/much-uk-pays-eu-much-get-back-537626 Bump :D ............ Obviously Brian cant explain how our terms will be less favourable than they are now? >:-) ......... Easy, I'm surprised you don't already know, since you seem to know exactly why we should leave. 1 No rebate. 2 Join Euro. 3 Join Schengen. Those are the terms on which all the later countries have had to join. So, a bit difficult to make an exception for the UK? Especially when our departure, if it happens, will have cost all other EU member states millions. You also seem to overlook the reason why we might want to re-join. If we leave, and the economists turn out to be right and the economy tanks, we shall be wanting to re-join to save our economic bacon. Good bargaining hand when wanting back all our old opt outs and rebate? In your dreams, baby! :-D 1.......No rebate?............ (lol) (lol) (lol) (lol) (lol) (lol) (lol) (lol) (lol) (lol) (lol) (lol) (lol) (lol) (lol) (lol) (lol) (lol) (lol) (lol) (lol) (lol) (lol) (lol) (lol) (lol) (lol) (lol) (lol) (lol) (lol) (lol) (lol) (lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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