thebishbus Posted March 16, 2020 Share Posted March 16, 2020 The UK left the EU at 23 00 GMT on the 31st of January, but we are abiding to their rules during the transition period . Brian B. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted March 16, 2020 Share Posted March 16, 2020 Spain is to shut its borders from Monday. Interior Minister Fernando Grande-Marlaska confirmed today there would be new controls on borders. He added the Government would only allow Spaniards, residents of Spain, cross-border workers, diplomats and people justifying force majeure into the country. Spain officially became the fourth-most-infected country in the world, surpassing South Korea as its arc of contagion curved higher. Only China, Italy and Iran have more confirmed cases of COVID-19 than Spain, where the health ministry said the number of infections increased overnight by roughly 20% to 9,191 and the number of fatalities rose to 309. https://tinyurl.com/updjy9t Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted March 16, 2020 Share Posted March 16, 2020 UK deaths hit 53 as another 18 die in the last 24 hours. https://tinyurl.com/ul38y7o I've never seen London like this. 8-) https://tinyurl.com/vqxc5xk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slowdriver Posted March 16, 2020 Share Posted March 16, 2020 This is quite cool, in a depressing kind of a way: https://elpais.com/sociedad/2020/03/16/actualidad/1584360628_538486.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted March 16, 2020 Share Posted March 16, 2020 slowdriver - 2020-03-16 6:45 PM This is quite cool, in a depressing kind of a way: https://elpais.com/sociedad/2020/03/16/actualidad/1584360628_538486.html Indeed and it's chilling watching the numbers rise, though i note it's struggling to keep pace with the stats, eg; UK death toll is now 53 and not 21 as shown. I think reality is finally beginning to sink in now with UK and Brits previously crowing about Blitz spirit 'winning' a war. This battle is very different and doesn't choose it's nationalities or borders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted March 17, 2020 Author Share Posted March 17, 2020 Wow, the Government have taken clear and drastic steps towards shutting the Country down in order to slow the pandemic and for us motorhomers the implications are now crystal clear; no non-essential travel, so effectively no motorhoming - for the foreseeable future. While in theory we could still cross the Channel and enter the EU, where could we sensibly go when everywhere else is shutting down too? Those of us who are retired and living comfortably on pensions have a secure income as far as we can tell but our younger relatives may not be so fortunate and it remains to be seen what steps will be taken to help those who haven't got a reliable income and those businesses which face disaster, such as pubs, which the PM is telling us all to avoid from now on. Without family and/or Government support for those who are threatened with sudden loss of income, an urgent financial crisis threatens and the scale of it will threaten the whole Country's stability and future. The elderly motorhomer should now self-isolate and prepare to do so for three months or more, either at home or,if you are in the MH somewhere else, work out whether and how to try to get home or ride out the pandemic elsewhere. There are no easy options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will86 Posted March 17, 2020 Share Posted March 17, 2020 It gets more like the 1930's everyday and something I'm very used to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spospe Posted March 17, 2020 Share Posted March 17, 2020 StuartO - 2020-03-17 8:52 AM Those of us who are retired and living comfortably on pensions have a secure income as far as we can tell but our younger relatives may not be so fortunate and it remains to be seen what steps will be taken to help those who haven't got a reliable income and those businesses which face disaster, such as pubs. Those living on a pension are only "comfortable" as long as the pensions are being paid. i.e. we are OK provided that enough people are working to support us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted March 17, 2020 Share Posted March 17, 2020 Will86 - 2020-03-17 8:57 AM It gets more like the 1930's everyday and something I'm very used to. Yes, but the Snowflake's aren't used to it, nowadays we have home entertainment far beyond what earlier generations had, but people are complaining. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted March 17, 2020 Share Posted March 17, 2020 StuartO - 2020-03-17 8:52 AM Wow, the Government have taken clear and drastic steps towards shutting the Country down in order to slow the pandemic and for us motorhomers the implications are now crystal clear; no non-essential travel, so effectively no motorhoming - for the foreseeable future. While in theory we could still cross the Channel and enter the EU, where could we sensibly go when everywhere else is shutting down too? We have tickets to go to Gordon Craig theatre in a few days, they have put on website a notice that they are considering the announcement, they have now removed that, so it looks like they don't think they should shut down. The steps are not clear and drastic, they are wooly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted March 17, 2020 Author Share Posted March 17, 2020 colin - 2020-03-17 9:38 AM StuartO - 2020-03-17 8:52 AM Wow, the Government have taken clear and drastic steps towards shutting the Country down in order to slow the pandemic and for us motorhomers the implications are now crystal clear; no non-essential travel, so effectively no motorhoming - for the foreseeable future. While in theory we could still cross the Channel and enter the EU, where could we sensibly go when everywhere else is shutting down too? We have tickets to go to Gordon Craig theatre in a few days, they have put on website a notice that they are considering the announcement, they have now removed that, so it looks like they don't think they should shut down. The steps are not clear and drastic, they are wooly. As with the travel advice, the Government seem to be trying to avoid being directive in a way which would allow people to make insurance claims - for example if there was FCO advice against travel anywhere outside UK, at least some travel policies would have to pay out for cancellation cover when they will otherwise refuse claims. There was talk of ineligability for loss of business claims unless the Government orders closure of theatres, pubs etc. I don't understand what the Government's inhibition is unless they feel some pressure to protect the insurers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumpstart Posted March 17, 2020 Share Posted March 17, 2020 Gut instinct. https://apple.news/A_1r1E4HCQj-sG1jygSLqTA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted March 17, 2020 Share Posted March 17, 2020 Will86 - 2020-03-16 1:07 PM Soap is soap but does a hand 'gel' have the same properties ? Read the article, and look at the soap ingredients, Will. It seems all soap is not soap. The ingredient quoted as having the Coronavirus (can't remember if this was common to all viruses) destroying properties was Sodium Laureth, Sulfate. The only "soap" we have in the house at present with that ingredient is a single "Simple" liquid soap pump dispenser. Our other soaps have similar sounding, but not identical ingredients. I assume some of these may, but others may not, have the same Coronavirus destroying properties. I'm not a chemist, so I'll just stick with soaps stated to contain Sodium Laureth, Sulfate! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted March 17, 2020 Share Posted March 17, 2020 laimeduck - 2020-03-16 1:47 PM Brian Kirby - 2020-03-16 12:22 PM Billggski - 2020-03-16 11:23 AM Just a reminder that the best protection against viruses is.......soap. The lipids in soap dissolve the protective outer layer of a virus. Destroying its core. Which is why the advice is to constantly wash your hands. Thanks for this Bill. I'd been puzzling about that soap advice ever since it was first given. I "googled" soap destroys virus and the result was this web article quoting professor Palli Thordarson, of the University of New South Wales: https://tinyurl.com/tmzlt43 Good explanation of the how and why soap works. Seems the technique would be to not wash hands under running water but instead to apply the soap to pre-wetted hands, work well in, wait 20 seconds, and then rinse away. I don't think that that is fully accurate? Nearly but not quite! (And before people shout foul I have an MSc in Biochemistry - not an expert, but I do have some knowledge!) I think it's the Virus envelope that has the lipids and these are dissolved by the soap thereby disrupting the virus & effectively killing it. It is fully explained in this article https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/mar/12/science-soap-kills-coronavirus-alcohol-based-disinfectants But Jeremy, the author of the Guardian article is the self-same Palli Thoradson as the author of the article I referenced! :-) I think in reality we're both singing from the same hymn sheet. I'm not sure what it is you think inaccurate. What he describes is exactly that the lipids destroy the virus outer envelops and then break down its fatty core (for which process a little time is required), so breaking it up into what he describes as shards, which are then rinsed away with the soap. Which bit is wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will86 Posted March 17, 2020 Share Posted March 17, 2020 Soap ... So there you go ... I believe the sun came up this morning ... or rather the planet rotated for it to appear so ... which is about the extent of my beliefs these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted March 17, 2020 Author Share Posted March 17, 2020 The FCO has now advised against non-essential travel globally for 30 days, so that might help you recover the cost of any bookings you have made during that period. Check your travel insurance conditions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted March 17, 2020 Share Posted March 17, 2020 slowdriver - 2020-03-16 4:40 PM Billggski - 2020-03-16 4:32 PM We may have left the eu, but have agreed to be subject to their laws and regulations, without any say in their implementation, until there is a final agreement. Which may be December 31st, or whenever. Yes, well that may well be the case, but what she said was that as European citizens we (UK citizens) can still travel to the EU. I thought our citizenship had changed...……………... We are in limbo. We have now left the EU (so we now have no part in the parliament, the council, or the commission) but, under the withdrawal agreement, and for so long as we (the UK) continue to observe the majority of EU regulations and directives, UK nationals and companies retain the rights we had as EU citizens. If we cease maintaining that observation, we lose our reserved EU rights. That will remain the position until the UK leaves transition, or ceases to observe the regulations and directives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laimeduck Posted March 17, 2020 Share Posted March 17, 2020 Brian Kirby - 2020-03-17 12:50 PM laimeduck - 2020-03-16 1:47 PM Brian Kirby - 2020-03-16 12:22 PM Billggski - 2020-03-16 11:23 AM Just a reminder that the best protection against viruses is.......soap. The lipids in soap dissolve the protective outer layer of a virus. Destroying its core. Which is why the advice is to constantly wash your hands. Thanks for this Bill. I'd been puzzling about that soap advice ever since it was first given. I "googled" soap destroys virus and the result was this web article quoting professor Palli Thordarson, of the University of New South Wales: https://tinyurl.com/tmzlt43 Good explanation of the how and why soap works. Seems the technique would be to not wash hands under running water but instead to apply the soap to pre-wetted hands, work well in, wait 20 seconds, and then rinse away. I don't think that that is fully accurate? Nearly but not quite! (And before people shout foul I have an MSc in Biochemistry - not an expert, but I do have some knowledge!) I think it's the Virus envelope that has the lipids and these are dissolved by the soap thereby disrupting the virus & effectively killing it. It is fully explained in this article https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/mar/12/science-soap-kills-coronavirus-alcohol-based-disinfectants But Jeremy, the author of the Guardian article is the self-same Palli Thoradson as the author of the article I referenced! :-) I think in reality we're both singing from the same hymn sheet. I'm not sure what it is you think inaccurate. What he describes is exactly that the lipids destroy the virus outer envelops and then break down its fatty core (for which process a little time is required), so breaking it up into what he describes as shards, which are then rinsed away with the soap. Which bit is wrong? Sorry Brian that is NOT what he is saying & I quote using my Caps- "The short story: because the virus is a self-assembled nanoparticle in which the weakest link is the LIPID (FATTY) bilayer. Soap dissolves the fat (LIPID) membrane and the virus falls apart like a house of cards and dies – or rather, we should say it becomes inactive as viruses aren’t really alive." The soap is not the lipid, the Virus envelope is the Lipid. What he is describing is is exacly what you see when you wash up a dirty frying pan covered in oil - The soap(detergent) dissolves the oil (fat) and disrupts it into smaller units (fatty acids) In the case of the virus envelope which he describes as being made from lipids(fats) the virus disintegrates into its constituent components and is made harmless. As far as I can determine and this is now speculation, the alcohol in sanitisers also dissolves this fatty layer and disrupts the virus envelope - BUT it needs to be over 60% alcohol. Also if you use these sanitisers you will know that the alcohol evaporates off very quickly, so you don't get anywhere near 20 secs of action. That is why thorough handwashing for 20 seconds minimum with soap and hot water is far more effective. Jeremy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spospe Posted March 17, 2020 Share Posted March 17, 2020 Brian Kirby - 2020-03-17 12:38 PM I assume some of these may, but others may not, have the same Coronavirus destroying properties. I'm not a chemist, so I'll just stick with soaps stated to contain Sodium Laureth, Sulfate! I just had a look and our (nothing special) shower gel has these ingredients, so it seems that you do not need specific hand cleaners to destroy the virus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted March 17, 2020 Share Posted March 17, 2020 Ah, now I understand! But not until I'd read my own post again. My bad! I found Thordarson's explanation very clear and informative, and that it explained interactions between humble soap and Covid-19 that I had not appreciated. I had hitherto thought that soap merely assisted in flushing the virus from the hands by loosening it, not by destroying it. I have since examined our soaps at home, and discovered that not all contain Sodium Laureth Sulfate, so will now be reading soap labels to identify those with maximum impact! :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulmold Posted March 17, 2020 Share Posted March 17, 2020 Got me reading soap ingredients now. The liquid soap we have contains the necessary ingredient but good old Palmolive bar contains lots of different Sodiums but not that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted March 17, 2020 Share Posted March 17, 2020 StuartO - 2020-03-17 8:52 AM Wow, the Government have taken clear and drastic steps towards shutting the Country down in order to slow the pandemic and for us motorhomers the implications are now crystal clear; no non-essential travel, so effectively no motorhoming - for the foreseeable future. While in theory we could still cross the Channel and enter the EU, where could we sensibly go when everywhere else is shutting down too? Those of us who are retired and living comfortably on pensions have a secure income as far as we can tell but our younger relatives may not be so fortunate and it remains to be seen what steps will be taken to help those who haven't got a reliable income and those businesses which face disaster, such as pubs, which the PM is telling us all to avoid from now on. Without family and/or Government support for those who are threatened with sudden loss of income, an urgent financial crisis threatens and the scale of it will threaten the whole Country's stability and future. The elderly motorhomer should now self-isolate and prepare to do so for three months or more, either at home or,if you are in the MH somewhere else, work out whether and how to try to get home or ride out the pandemic elsewhere. There are no easy options. 1) I don't think they've been drastic enough and if anything, slow to respond displayed by much indecisiveness. 2) That depends on ones definition of 'comfortable'. The image portrayed of 'wealthy pensioners' is for the most part a fallacy as they form a very small minority. UK state pensions are one of the lowest in Europe so unless you had enough disposable income when working to make increased state pension contributions and/or fund a private pension, you will 'exist' more than live 'comfortably'. https://www.ftadviser.com/pensions/2018/02/13/uk-state-pension-worst-in-the-developed-world/ Self employed, low income earners or zero hour employees are pretty much stuffed with little help at all from government. UK is also one of only four countries where self-employed are not eligible for any sick pay. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/coronavirus-sick-pay-uk-self-isolate-europe-outbreak-cases-a9393831.html 3) I totally agree but would also take it a stage further by compulsory testing every returning Brit before allowing entry back into UK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted March 17, 2020 Share Posted March 17, 2020 StuartO - 2020-03-17 9:52 AM colin - 2020-03-17 9:38 AM StuartO - 2020-03-17 8:52 AM Wow, the Government have taken clear and drastic steps towards shutting the Country down in order to slow the pandemic and for us motorhomers the implications are now crystal clear; no non-essential travel, so effectively no motorhoming - for the foreseeable future. While in theory we could still cross the Channel and enter the EU, where could we sensibly go when everywhere else is shutting down too? We have tickets to go to Gordon Craig theatre in a few days, they have put on website a notice that they are considering the announcement, they have now removed that, so it looks like they don't think they should shut down. The steps are not clear and drastic, they are wooly. As with the travel advice, the Government seem to be trying to avoid being directive in a way which would allow people to make insurance claims - for example if there was FCO advice against travel anywhere outside UK, at least some travel policies would have to pay out for cancellation cover when they will otherwise refuse claims. There was talk of ineligability for loss of business claims unless the Government orders closure of theatres, pubs etc. I don't understand what the Government's inhibition is unless they feel some pressure to protect the insurers. Having read another fm's post yesterday on another thread about cancelling a booking with Brittany ferries, you may well be right, and a most unlikely source, a football manager, spoke out about his thoughts on this issue; Gary Neville tweeted: ‘Oh this one is all about insurance !!! Oh and by the way don’t go to restaurants/ bars / theatres but get your kids to school!! https://tinyurl.com/qowmqee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slowdriver Posted March 17, 2020 Share Posted March 17, 2020 Bulletguy - 2020-03-17 3:39 PM 3) I totally agree but would also take it a stage further by compulsory testing every returning Brit before allowing entry back into UK. That boat sailed five days ago when the Chief Scientific Officer stood up and said: "“There are currently 590 cases that have been identified in the UK and there are more than 20 patients in intensive care units. “If you calculate what that really means in terms of the total number, it is much more likely that we have between 5,000 and 10,000 people infected at the moment." Those five to ten thousand were not returning from anywhere they were in the community, and infected in the community. In addition comprehensive testing has yet to occur in the UK. Compulsory testing has yet to occur. The government chose not to introduce either as part of Boris Johnson "striking a balance".(5th March 2020). I doubt that introducing it now would make a jot of difference. I have friends, fortunately recovering, who tried to register and get tested and could not. The South Koreans have tested 200,000 and are tracing as well. Our maximum capacity up until a couple of days ago was 1,500. So we are, whether we like it or not, at the beginning of an experiment based on an untested statistical model, on how herd immunity re COVID 19 can be acquired. This is a particularly callous experiment given that this is a new virus and its behaviour is insufficiently understood to be able to take such a gamble. I wish I was sufficiently knowledgeable to understand the differences between what the world scientific community considers to be the correct course of action, and the, shall we say, more adventurous course the UK Chief Medical Officer and the UK Chief Scientific Officer have recommended, albeit I suspect under a modicum of political pressure. Sadly these guys, who I quite like listening to, are the fall guys if the strategy doesn't work. Politicians will keep repeating "We are following the science", simply because they need someone else to blame and hang onto power. If you are interested in how it played out in China I recommend these sources all from the same British scientist, Daniel Falush - who works on the statistical genetics of bacteria and humans. (NB Not a virologist) who is Professor, Institute Pasteur Shanghai. He has lived through the outbreak in China. The three following pieces are informative, and no doubt can be argued with. Several of you are better placed than I am to make a judgement on the scientific arguments. But the social policy stuff is pretty accessible. There are three pieces, a Blogpost, an audio interview and some comments on his twitter feed. 1) His blogspot here: https://paintmychromosomes.blogspot.com/?view=classic Just scroll down from most recent to earlier posts. The three from March are the only pertinent ones. including: - We need our fear and anger to tackle COVID-19 - *Especially* Delay is not a viable strategy. Contain Contain Contain. (or The postmodern dynamics of COVID-19) *Especially* - Coronovirus will curtail your freedom. Your only choice is when and how. 2) There is an extended audio interview here which provides insight into life in China and how lockdown works. It’s helpful, to me anyway, (apart from the blathering American interviewer, who should take a course in identifying what he is trying to ask before opening his mouth!) https://brownpundits.libsyn.com/british-scientist-in-shanghai-talks-coronavirus 3) And lastly a twitter thread here which critiques the UK government approach, and questions one particular point in Prof. Whitty's evidence to Parliament. I recommend them all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laimeduck Posted March 17, 2020 Share Posted March 17, 2020 Brian Kirby - 2020-03-17 3:04 PM Ah, now I understand! But not until I'd read my own post again. My bad! I found Thordarson's explanation very clear and informative, and that it explained interactions between humble soap and Covid-19 that I had not appreciated. I had hitherto thought that soap merely assisted in flushing the virus from the hands by loosening it, not by destroying it. I have since examined our soaps at home, and discovered that not all contain Sodium Laureth Sulfate, so will now be reading soap labels to identify those with maximum impact! :-D Sodium Lauryl or Laureth Sulfate is not a very pleasant chemical. It is a surfactant added to liquid soaps to make them froth. It also can be an agent in causing sebborrheic dermatitis which commonly shows as Dandruff! In the big scheme of things though, there is no contest between Covid-19 and Dandruff! Besides, who is going to see the Dandruff if we are all self-isolating? See this article for more on SLS https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/articles/1DjRTHSCZK3h7V6dlxyHRdP/are-my-wash-products-damaging-my-skin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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