We also need a solution for Bad Black Behaviour

[StuartO]

jumpstart - 2020-06-18 11:32 AM

 

Surely Stuart the whole point of a discussion good or bad ,right or wrong is to stay in the discussion . He is still entitled to his view. I very much doubt anybody has the right answer or approach.

 

Indeed yes, but I just get fed up with Brian’s nit picking, analytical and sometimes irrelevant judgements, like some short-man-syndrome teacher who loves to reach out for his red pencil and highlight the grammatical errors. I imagine Brian as someone who is at least five feet tall but I do hope that isn’t too close to the truth; I am merely imagining.

[Violet1956]

StuartO - 2020-06-18 11:48 AM

 

jumpstart - 2020-06-18 11:32 AM

 

Surely Stuart the whole point of a discussion good or bad ,right or wrong is to stay in the discussion . He is still entitled to his view. I very much doubt anybody has the right answer or approach.

 

Indeed yes, but I just get fed up with Brian’s nit picking, analytical and sometimes irrelevant judgements, like some short-man-syndrome teacher who loves to reach out for his red pencil and highlight the grammatical errors. I imagine Brian as someone who is at least five feet tall but I do hope that isn’t too close to the truth; I am merely imagining.

Oh I think you have let yourself down Stuart sadly. There is room for those inclined to forensic examination on here. It may not be what we are all inclined to do, least of all myself. Brian thinks very carefully about what he posts and is to be lauded for that.

[Brian Kirby]

jumpstart - 2020-06-18 7:27 AM...………………...To be honest Brian you are doing what you complain of. “ how we are going to get them to behave more like us”. That surely is dangerously close to a racist remark.

Fair comment. I was rushed at the end, and it was a poor choice of words. Mea culpa.

 

But the point I was trying (albeit badly) to make is that what we have done is make immigrants, but more especially non-white immigrants, feel unwelcome and rejected. Their natural reaction to this has been to coalesce into groups that we sometimes unwisely call ghettos. There is nothing new in this, it is human nature on both sides, and has happened with every large scale migration throughout history.

 

It even happened between neighbouring villages before the days of the motor car, when "them over there" were a bit odd! "All the world is queer, save thee and me, and even thou art a little queer.” :-D

 

Over time the barriers broke down and the immigrants largely assimilated into the rest of society to become just a part of "us" (that "us" I was referring to above). Our social norms, sometimes our diet, gradually absorbed the ripples of difference that occurred as they were absorbed.

 

We know this because none of us can trace our ancestors very far back into history before we find evidence of immigrant forbears. But that process had, until, say, the post WW2 period, been predominantly of northern European origin, and so relatively unnoticeable.

 

But after WW2 the large scale immigration was coming predominantly from much further afield, from Asia, the Caribbean, and parts of Africa, and the migrants were immediately identifiable by their different skin colour and non-European culture. The combination of immediately identifiable skin colours, and more widely divergent cultures, made these immigrants stand out from the background. So the process of integration was more difficult.

 

Good "Wiki" here: https://tinyurl.com/yb6zcr9d

 

These episodes of overt hostility have left their mark, as have the petty every-day racism they continue to encounter. They are a minority who, because of their looks, cannot fade into the background, and who can never be certain how the next white face they encounter will respond to them. It is that lingering unease that we have to dispel, and that requires social change to make the prejudice that causes it unacceptable, and that in turn will only be brought about by peer pressure. Education, persuasion, and psychology, not legislation or penalties, are the tools we must use, first on ourselves.

 

Then, over time, just as with other migrant groups, as the sense of being unwelcome outsiders subsides, their confidence will grow, they will drop their defensiveness, and they will begin to blend in socially. Then they will truly become, and will feel, part of that "us" I was trying to capture above. But, IMO, that will never happen until we recognise that we are their problem, and not vice versa.

[Birdbrain]

jumpstart - 2020-06-18 10:07 AM

 

Birdbrain.

Which countries have made a success of multiculturalism ??? ... What benefits has multiculturalism brought to Britain that we wouldnt have had without it ??? Why do those who generally champion multiculturalism live in areas unaffected by it ???

 

 

The answer to your question is us...the UK. My famiily are immigrants. This country has benefitted from it.

My Grandfather(French) fought in the British army in WWW1 and in the RAF in WWW2 with my father,also French. Multiple cultures were included during this period.

The more years go on the more multicultural most countries will become because we are now universal with travel. There is no going back. Education is the key.

 

I presume your family integrated as most from European backgrounds do ... Your father and grandfather and others from different countries fought to rid the world of Hitler , Mussolini and The Japanese , they did not fight for multiculturalism , I salute your family for their bravery by the way ... Unfortunately you are wrong with your things will get better through education line ... When you have communities who do not want to integrate , who not want to become British , who will not accept their failings in life are down to them and not any slave ancestry they may have then you can try education till you are blue in the face , it wont work

[Birdbrain]

Violet1956 - 2020-06-18 12:22 PM

 

StuartO - 2020-06-18 11:48 AM

 

jumpstart - 2020-06-18 11:32 AM

 

Surely Stuart the whole point of a discussion good or bad ,right or wrong is to stay in the discussion . He is still entitled to his view. I very much doubt anybody has the right answer or approach.

 

Indeed yes, but I just get fed up with Brian’s nit picking, analytical and sometimes irrelevant judgements, like some short-man-syndrome teacher who loves to reach out for his red pencil and highlight the grammatical errors. I imagine Brian as someone who is at least five feet tall but I do hope that isn’t too close to the truth; I am merely imagining.

Oh I think you have let yourself down Stuart sadly. There is room for those inclined to forensic examination on here. It may not be what we are all inclined to do, least of all myself. Brian thinks very carefully about what he posts and is to be lauded for that.

 

Maybe you owe Stuart an apology Veronica ... Brian obviously at times doesnt "think very carefully" about what he posts as he accepts in his last post ... Stuart hasn't let himself down and hes not posted anything remotely racist IMO ... If we are to discuss this subject it might be nice to discuss it without any fear of being labelled anything ... Not having a go at you personally by the way

[malc d]

Violet1956 - 2020-06-18 12:22 PM

 

StuartO - 2020-06-18 11:48 AM

 

jumpstart - 2020-06-18 11:32 AM

 

Surely Stuart the whole point of a discussion good or bad ,right or wrong is to stay in the discussion . He is still entitled to his view. I very much doubt anybody has the right answer or approach.

 

Indeed yes, but I just get fed up with Brian’s nit picking, analytical and sometimes irrelevant judgements, like some short-man-syndrome teacher who loves to reach out for his red pencil and highlight the grammatical errors. I imagine Brian as someone who is at least five feet tall but I do hope that isn’t too close to the truth; I am merely imagining.

Oh I think you have let yourself down Stuart sadly. There is room for those inclined to forensic examination on here. It may not be what we are all inclined to do, least of all myself. Brian thinks very carefully about what he posts and is to be lauded for that.

 

 

Reading through this thread I am reminded of something that Stuart said earlier in the year :

 

" I will fight for your freedom of speech, as long as you use it responsibly "

 

Who is to decide what is " responsible " speech ?

 

(…. and surely if someone is deciding what people can say - then it's not free speech ).

 

;-)

[Violet1956]

Birdbrain - 2020-06-18 12:35 PM

 

Violet1956 - 2020-06-18 12:22 PM

 

StuartO - 2020-06-18 11:48 AM

 

jumpstart - 2020-06-18 11:32 AM

 

Surely Stuart the whole point of a discussion good or bad ,right or wrong is to stay in the discussion . He is still entitled to his view. I very much doubt anybody has the right answer or approach.

 

Indeed yes, but I just get fed up with Brian’s nit picking, analytical and sometimes irrelevant judgements, like some short-man-syndrome teacher who loves to reach out for his red pencil and highlight the grammatical errors. I imagine Brian as someone who is at least five feet tall but I do hope that isn’t too close to the truth; I am merely imagining.

Oh I think you have let yourself down Stuart sadly. There is room for those inclined to forensic examination on here. It may not be what we are all inclined to do, least of all myself. Brian thinks very carefully about what he posts and is to be lauded for that.

 

Maybe you owe Stuart an apology Veronica ... Brian obviously at times doesnt "think very carefully" about what he posts as he accepts in his last post ... Stuart hasn't let himself down and hes not posted anything remotely racist IMO ... If we are to discuss this subject it might be nice to discuss it without any fear of being labelled anything ... Not having a go at you personally by the way

 

It doesn’t have to get so personal in my view Antony. Not that I am claiming to be innocent all the time. One person’s view of nit-picking is another’s view of careful and incisive thought. It comes down to this; by whatever analysis or none, detailed or superficial, there is a potential truth in whatever our contributors have to offer. Let’s put our perceptions or prejudices aside when considering them. We all make the odd error when posting and when challenged to reflect on it, then the best of us admit to our mistakes.

[Violet1956]

malc d - 2020-06-18 1:01 PM

 

Violet1956 - 2020-06-18 12:22 PM

 

StuartO - 2020-06-18 11:48 AM

 

jumpstart - 2020-06-18 11:32 AM

 

Surely Stuart the whole point of a discussion good or bad ,right or wrong is to stay in the discussion . He is still entitled to his view. I very much doubt anybody has the right answer or approach.

 

Indeed yes, but I just get fed up with Brian’s nit picking, analytical and sometimes irrelevant judgements, like some short-man-syndrome teacher who loves to reach out for his red pencil and highlight the grammatical errors. I imagine Brian as someone who is at least five feet tall but I do hope that isn’t too close to the truth; I am merely imagining.

Oh I think you have let yourself down Stuart sadly. There is room for those inclined to forensic examination on here. It may not be what we are all inclined to do, least of all myself. Brian thinks very carefully about what he posts and is to be lauded for that.

 

 

Reading through this thread I am reminded of something that Stuart said earlier in the year :

 

" I will fight for your freedom of speech, as long as you use it responsibly "

 

Who is to decide what is " responsible " speech ?

 

(…. and surely if someone is deciding what people can say - then it's not free speech ).

 

;-)

You are a man of few words Malc-always used to best effect

[Brian Kirby]

StuartO - 2020-06-18 11:48 AM

jumpstart - 2020-06-18 11:32 AM

Surely Stuart the whole point of a discussion good or bad ,right or wrong is to stay in the discussion . He is still entitled to his view. I very much doubt anybody has the right answer or approach.

Indeed yes, but I just get fed up with Brian’s nit picking, analytical and sometimes irrelevant judgements, like some short-man-syndrome teacher who loves to reach out for his red pencil and highlight the grammatical errors. I imagine Brian as someone who is at least five feet tall but I do hope that isn’t too close to the truth; I am merely imagining.

Stuart, in starting this string you chose to enter a lion's den. You knew that, you aren't daft. It requires great verbal skill and the ability to tread on eggshells with words.

 

I think you took my initial reply as an attack on you, whereas it was intended as a gentle pointer that some of what you had written appeared to contain elements of racial prejudice. I started my reply by accepting that your intention was otherwise.

 

I don't know, but I wonder if others may have stood back for just that reason, wondering how to respond and whether they were being baited. The pause before anyone replied made me think that everyone else was drawing breath, but then holding back.

 

I fell into the trap myself, as John pointed out, by using careless wording. I don't resent that, it is better to be confronted by one's failures, and be given to opportunity to clarify (or try to! :-)) than to leave unintended inferences.

 

This area is a minefield, where the slightest slip leads to misinterpretation. In that context we all need the presence of that "nit picking, analytical and sometimes irrelevant judgements, like some short-man-syndrome teacher who loves to reach out for his red pencil" because we are all liable to be misunderstood exactly when we sought understanding. This is a public arena, and what we write will be read by many more than respond, so anyone who points to our accidental mixed messages is our friend, not our enemy.

 

That irksome teacher is the forum readership, including the 217 who have read but not responded, but will have formed their own silent opinions of those of us who contributed.

[jumpstart]

Can a comedian joke about Coloured people. What is offensive? Does it matter if it is. It doesn’t take much to get labelled, antisemetic , racist, whatever.

[jumpstart]

I see that Dominic Raab says he refuses to take the knee, say it feels like subjugation. I certainly wouldnt, but that doesn’t mean that I agree with the violence by American cops.

[StuartO]

Brian Kirby - 2020-06-18 1:09 PM I think you took my initial reply as an attack on you, whereas it was intended as a gentle pointer that some of what you had written appeared to contain elements of racial prejudice. I started my reply by accepting that your intention was otherwise......

 

Your first respnse, if you want to know, came across to me as sanctimonious tripe. I was trying to raise a difficult topic and you went off at a tangent by providing an univited critique of the weaknesses of my expression of political correctness. You knew I was trying not to appear in any way racist and you must have known your comments would not be helpful in floating the topic but you couldn't stop yourself making the suggestion of racial prejudice on my part anyway. And you said nothing at all about the topic, nothing. Soon afterwards you made a remark yourself which someone else suggested could be construed as racist. It's always going to be possible these days for someone to interpret anything as racist if they are so primed or inclined.

 

You haven't convinced me that you weren't talking unhelpful sanctimonious tripe so let's leave it at that.

[StuartO]

Brian Kirby - 2020-06-18 12:23 PM ....But the point I was trying (albeit badly) to make is that what we have done is make immigrants, but more especially non-white immigrants, feel unwelcome and rejected. Their natural reaction to this has been to coalesce into groups that we sometimes unwisely call ghettos. There is nothing new in this, it is human nature on both sides, and has happened with every large scale migration throughout history.

 

It even happened between neighbouring villages before the days of the motor car, when "them over there" were a bit odd! "All the world is queer, save thee and me, and even thou art a little queer.” :-D

 

Over time the barriers broke down and the immigrants largely assimilated into the rest of society to become just a part of "us" (that "us" I was referring to above). Our social norms, sometimes our diet, gradually absorbed the ripples of difference that occurred as they were absorbed.

 

We know this because none of us can trace our ancestors very far back into history before we find evidence of immigrant forbears. But that process had, until, say, the post WW2 period, been predominantly of northern European origin, and so relatively unnoticeable.

 

But after WW2 the large scale immigration was coming predominantly from much further afield, from Asia, the Caribbean, and parts of Africa, and the migrants were immediately identifiable by their different skin colour and non-European culture. The combination of immediately identifiable skin colours, and more widely divergent cultures, made these immigrants stand out from the background. So the process of integration was more difficult.

 

Good "Wiki" here: https://tinyurl.com/yb6zcr9d

 

These episodes of overt hostility have left their mark, as have the petty every-day racism they continue to encounter. They are a minority who, because of their looks, cannot fade into the background, and who can never be certain how the next white face they encounter will respond to them. It is that lingering unease that we have to dispel, and that requires social change to make the prejudice that causes it unacceptable, and that in turn will only be brought about by peer pressure. Education, persuasion, and psychology, not legislation or penalties, are the tools we must use, first on ourselves.

 

Then, over time, just as with other migrant groups, as the sense of being unwelcome outsiders subsides, their confidence will grow, they will drop their defensiveness, and they will begin to blend in socially. Then they will truly become, and will feel, part of that "us" I was trying to capture above. But, IMO, that will never happen until we recognise that we are their problem, and not vice versa.

 

What you seem to be saying is immigrants fail to assimilate because they are made to feel unwelcome and so it's the resident white majority which should feel responsible. And in the context of this topic you presumaby mean that the white majority bear all the responsibility for everything that's going wrong unless and until the immigrant people of colour feel comfortable enough to want to assimilate.

 

Well I'm shocked. I've heard some whacky liberal ideas in my time but that takes the biscuit. Are you really saying that immigrants have no obligation at all to make an effort to assimilate or at least get on with the resident population? And is all the bad behaviour and crime which is commited by third generation descendents of these immigrants still the host white community's fault too?

 

Don't expatriate Brits living retired in Spain gather together as little communities, with some of them not bothering to learn Spanish at all? Isn't it natural for ethnic and cultural groups to form friendships and stick together, regardless of their origin or colour? Don't the Poles in UK stick together sicially and buy from Polish Delis, even though they are often and widely praised for being good immigrants, with almost never a word said against them?

 

And isn't the principle in UK justice that we're all personally responsible for our actions unless proven otherwise?

[Birdbrain]

Birdbrain - 2020-06-18 9:29 AM

 

StuartO - 2020-06-18 9:11 AM

 

Well we've got this discussion going - and it was a slow sttart as you all hestitated to get involved and to work out how you could respond. And we've had the usual polarised positions reasserted,so that's out of the way. So what about being constructive?

 

Bullet seems thinks we need to concentrate of getting everyone to accept that we're a multicultural society these days and everything will follow from that - which strikes me as fanciful and indeed t simply hasn't happened and probably never will on its own. We've been multicultural (and politically correct) for half a generation at least and we've still got black ghettos and high black unemployment and crime so that's not solving itself simply because we're more multicultural. And when I pointed out that there are high achieving blacks I deliberately didn't refer to high earning sportsmen because it isn't just a question of blacks with athletic skills being successful - there are some very clever blacks in prominent positions these days. But we've still got disproportionately high crime, gang behaviour and failure to make progress in employment among the majority of blacks in UK, so why is that not improving? We've put effort and money into it and it hasn't worked so we're not getting it right. And we're suffering anti-social behaviour and we're holding far too many blacks in prison because of these failures. Our blacks are never going to develop their full potential in our modern society under their own cultural and intellectual steam and as a society we are clearly failing to help our blacks in the right ways.

 

And it isn't just that the average black is too thick and too lazy to work well unless cornered compared with other races because there are thick and lazy whites, browns and yellows too. There's a big problem in Lancashire with young men of asian etnicity who have grown up being spoiled by their mothers for cultural reasons and lots of them fail miserably when they enter work - partly because they don't want to try making any effort.

 

Races, measured comparatively as racial groups, do show differences in potential to thrive so we do need to take account of those differences when we address their different needs, otherwise we'll never give them genuinely equal opportunities in life in our multicultural society. Historically whites have done relatively well as a race in recent centuries but that wasn't always the case (Asia was far ahead of the West for a long time) and it certainly wasn't because white are cleverer because whites come out top in inter-racial comparisons of the capacity to make progress and thrive. Note that I am avoiding the use of "intelligence" as a useful or reliable measure because quite part from the technical difficulties of measuring comparative intelligence, there's far more to the qualities and skills needed to make a success of life than IQ. I've known some intelligent people who were pretty useless in life.

 

Brian is accused of wanting to make the blacks develop into something "more like us". Well if the majority of blacks are to have the potential to thrive and prosper in our modern, developed, multicultural society maybe that does mean they have to learn how to cope and thrive more effectively - and that might mean that they have to learn some of "our" ways. If we UK whites (or UK blacks) found ourselves living in Botswana or Jamaica we'd certainly have to learn some new ways and develop some new attitudes too.

 

Of course it would be wrong to bear down heavily on violent black demonstrations exclusively and our police were tackling the violent counter-protesters in London recently (mainly white as I understand) in the same way and so they should. Nor am I suggesting that we should resort to lethal force. But my argument was that we are not being effective in maintaining law and order so we need to get better at it, so the mob violence can always be nipped promptly in the bud. I want to avoid developing the resources and methods of a police state.

 

So please stop rehearsing simplistic articles of faith, hope and morality about racial equality and think of practical, workable ways of moving towards genuine equal opportunity for all in our society. I doubt that racial equality (or racial equity as the same fanciful objective is now being called) will ever be achievable because some of us will always make a mess of our lives, no matter what oportunities we've had. But we can at least try to give our blacks (and all other colours) genuine opportunity to develop, achieve their personal potential, thrive and find happiness.

 

Which countries have made a success of multiculturalism ??? ... What benefits has multiculturalism brought to Britain that we wouldnt have had without it ??? Why do those who generally champion multiculturalism live in areas unaffected by it ???

 

No takers other than Jumpstart ??? ... I thought there would be a long list of countries with multicultural harmony and a longer list of what Britain benefits from multiculturalism ... Come on , sell it to me

[Violet1956]

StuartO - 2020-06-18 2:24 PM

 

Brian Kirby - 2020-06-18 1:09 PM I think you took my initial reply as an attack on you, whereas it was intended as a gentle pointer that some of what you had written appeared to contain elements of racial prejudice. I started my reply by accepting that your intention was otherwise......

 

Your first respnse, if you want to know, came across to me as sanctimonious tripe. I was trying to raise a difficult topic and you went off at a tangent by providing an univited critique of the weaknesses of my expression of political correctness. You knew I was trying not to appear in any way racist and you must have known your comments would not be helpful in floating the topic but you couldn't stop yourself making the suggestion of racial prejudice on my part anyway. And you said nothing at all about the topic, nothing. Soon afterwards you made a remark yourself which someone else suggested could be construed as racist. It's always going to be possible these days for someone to interpret anything as racist if they are so primed or inclined.

 

You haven't convinced me that you weren't talking unhelpful sanctimonious tripe so let's leave it at that.

 

 

Would that you could hold back when facing the temptation to indulge in personal slights Stuart.

 

[StuartO]

Did you miss my response of 18 June 2020 10:51 AM which is on Page One of this thread?

[StuartO]

Violet1956 - 2020-06-18 5:46 PM Would that you could hold back when facing the temptation to indulge in personal slights Stuart.

 

Tact and diplomacy were never my strong suits but since I retired I no longer have to be in the least concerned about being complained about to the GMC so almost all the inhibition has left me. :-D :-D

[Violet1956]

StuartO - 2020-06-18 5:53 PM

 

Violet1956 - 2020-06-18 5:46 PM Would that you could hold back when facing the temptation to indulge in personal slights Stuart.

 

Tact and diplomacy were never my strong suits but since I retired I no longer have to be in the least concerned about being complained about to the GMC so almost all the inhibition has left me. :-D :-D

 

I can identify with that. Have yet to retire myself and then I plan to really let rip!

[Brian Kirby]

StuartO - 2020-06-18 2:45 PM

Brian Kirby - 2020-06-18 12:23 PM ....But the point I was trying (albeit badly) to make is that what we have done is make immigrants, but more especially non-white immigrants, feel unwelcome and rejected. Their natural reaction to this has been to coalesce into groups that we sometimes unwisely call ghettos. There is nothing new in this, it is human nature on both sides, and has happened with every large scale migration throughout history.

It even happened between neighbouring villages before the days of the motor car, when "them over there" were a bit odd! "All the world is queer, save thee and me, and even thou art a little queer.” :-D

Over time the barriers broke down and the immigrants largely assimilated into the rest of society to become just a part of "us" (that "us" I was referring to above). Our social norms, sometimes our diet, gradually absorbed the ripples of difference that occurred as they were absorbed.

We know this because none of us can trace our ancestors very far back into history before we find evidence of immigrant forbears. But that process had, until, say, the post WW2 period, been predominantly of northern European origin, and so relatively unnoticeable.

But after WW2 the large scale immigration was coming predominantly from much further afield, from Asia, the Caribbean, and parts of Africa, and the migrants were immediately identifiable by their different skin colour and non-European culture. The combination of immediately identifiable skin colours, and more widely divergent cultures, made these immigrants stand out from the background. So the process of integration was more difficult.

Good "Wiki" here: https://tinyurl.com/yb6zcr9d

These episodes of overt hostility have left their mark, as have the petty every-day racism they continue to encounter. They are a minority who, because of their looks, cannot fade into the background, and who can never be certain how the next white face they encounter will respond to them. It is that lingering unease that we have to dispel, and that requires social change to make the prejudice that causes it unacceptable, and that in turn will only be brought about by peer pressure. Education, persuasion, and psychology, not legislation or penalties, are the tools we must use, first on ourselves.

Then, over time, just as with other migrant groups, as the sense of being unwelcome outsiders subsides, their confidence will grow, they will drop their defensiveness, and they will begin to blend in socially. Then they will truly become, and will feel, part of that "us" I was trying to capture above. But, IMO, that will never happen until we recognise that we are their problem, and not vice versa.

A) What you seem to be saying is immigrants fail to assimilate because they are made to feel unwelcome and so it's the resident white majority which should feel responsible. B) And in the context of this topic you presumaby mean that the white majority bear all the responsibility for everything that's going wrong unless and until the immigrant people of colour feel comfortable enough to want to assimilate.

A) I think there is an element of that, but I was referring to non-white immigrants and not, as you imply, immigrants in general.

 

B) No. What I am saying is that those who have in various ways demonstrated racial prejudice have created a climate of hostility that non-white immigrants experience but have no way of knowing, on first acquaintance, which of the rest of us harbours. How they then respond will depend on their personalities, and what their direct experiences have been. It would be ludicrous to attribute the cause to all white natives when not all are prejudiced, and equally ludicrous to claim that all non-white immigrants who transgress do so because of their experiences of racial prejudice. But some prejudiced whites, and some recalcitrant non-whites?

 

C) Well I'm shocked. I've heard some whacky liberal ideas in my time but that takes the biscuit. D) Are you really saying that immigrants have no obligation at all to make an effort to assimilate or at least get on with the resident population? E) And is all the bad behaviour and crime which is commited by third generation descendents of these immigrants still the host white community's fault too?

C) I'm sorry if that shocks, it seems obvious to me. Let's put it another way, with impeccable provenance: "as ye sow, so shall ye reap".

 

D) No, I am not saying that. I am arguing that the process would be easier for them if we didn't show prejudice against them.

 

E) You keep racing to the extremes! No, not all, but if you put yourself in the shoes of that third generation immigrant kid being picked on at school because of his colour, a degree of resentment seems more probable than a desire to embrace his white counterpart - in case the result is hostility. How is he to know how his approach might be received? So his initial reaction is defensive, which often gives offence - and off we go.

 

F) Don't expatriate Brits living retired in Spain gather together as little communities, with some of them not bothering to learn Spanish at all?

G) Isn't it natural for ethnic and cultural groups to form friendships and stick together, regardless of their origin or colour? H) Don't the Poles in UK stick together socially and buy from Polish Delis, even though they are often and widely praised for being good immigrants, with almost never a word said against them?

F) Sadly, yes. And I imagine that clannishness offends some of the Spanish. If the tables were reversed, it would offend me. Personally, when abroad, I try to speak at least some of the language of the country I'm in. When in Rome...…..? It seems the polite thing to do.

 

G) Yes, it is natural. But the question is whether it assists integration. I admit to a degree of irritation when people who have been in the UK for decades speak bad, and heavily, accented English, and dress as in their countries of origin. It indicates they have spent most of the it time here within their family, or ethnic, group. Why, then, are they here? They left their homeland, yet seem to want to import it with them. Natural, yes, but a mistake, IMO, that mitigates against them being assimilated by their host community. I won't accept you, but you should accept me.

 

H) Yes, but many Brits sniff out the Polish delis as well! They form a rather different group, as many arrived in UK peripheral to WW2, under the Polish Resettlement Act, on the back of a relationship that dates back to the C16. They are white, so don't stand out in the way that non-whites do, they share a similar religious faith, many speak English better than some natives, and many came as wartime refugees, so were grateful to have been taken in. Many came intending to return after the war - and look what happened to that desire!

 

So, they settled, initially in large groupings in our major cities, but have since intermarried and integrated and spread across the UK.

 

In a way, they make my point. They were generally welcomed, and special measures were introduced for their education. Having been welcomed and helped, they reciprocated in kind. Contrast that experience with the No Irish, No dogs, No Blacks that "welcomed" many of the Caribbean migrants in the 50's, and consider whether the (general) integration of the one group might not give some insight into the (general) failure to integrate of the other.

 

And isn't the principle in UK justice that we're all personally responsible for our actions unless proven otherwise?

Yes, but provocation also provides a defence. If you keep provoking someone in the presence of witnesses, and he eventually snaps and smacks you on the nose, you're unlikely to be able to sustain an assault charge against him! :-D

[Bulletguy]

StuartO - 2020-06-18 9:11 AM

 

Well we've got this discussion going - and it was a slow sttart as you all hestitated to get involved and to work out how you could respond. And we've had the usual polarised positions reasserted,so that's out of the way. So what about being constructive?

 

Bullet seems thinks we need to concentrate of getting everyone to accept that we're a multicultural society these days and everything will follow from that - which strikes me as fanciful and indeed t simply hasn't happened and probably never will on its own.

That we are a multicultural country is historical fact so cannot be ignored and there are many articles covering it such as this short article; https://greatbritishmag.co.uk/ask-a-brit/is-the-uk-multicultural/

 

For sure some people don't accept we are, including some white British. Quite why i've no idea though much seems to be down to their dislike of skin colour rather than a foreign accent. How will they cope when they find the surgeon about to save their life is black or brown? To me it's the person within that matters more than colour, race or whatever else.

[Birdbrain]

Bulletguy - 2020-06-18 6:03 PM

 

StuartO - 2020-06-18 9:11 AM

 

Well we've got this discussion going - and it was a slow sttart as you all hestitated to get involved and to work out how you could respond. And we've had the usual polarised positions reasserted,so that's out of the way. So what about being constructive?

 

Bullet seems thinks we need to concentrate of getting everyone to accept that we're a multicultural society these days and everything will follow from that - which strikes me as fanciful and indeed t simply hasn't happened and probably never will on its own.

That we are a multicultural country is historical fact so cannot be ignored and there are many articles covering it such as this short article; https://greatbritishmag.co.uk/ask-a-brit/is-the-uk-multicultural/

 

For sure some people don't accept we are, including some white British. Quite why i've no idea though much seems to be down to their dislike of skin colour rather than a foreign accent. How will they cope when they find the surgeon about to save their life is black or brown? To me it's the person within that matters more than colour, race or whatever else.

 

Never heard anyone deny we are a multicultural country ... I have heard many deny that we dont live in multicultural harmony though ... Bradford , Leicester , Luton , Oldham etc etc etc maybe tell the story better ... Can anyone tell me the benefits that Britain or any other country has had through multiculturalism and what they have gained because of it ???

[Brian Kirby]

Birdbrain - 2020-06-18 9:29 AM...…………………………

1) Which countries have made a success of multiculturalism ??? ...

2) What benefits has multiculturalism brought to Britain that we wouldnt have had without it ???

3) Why do those who generally champion multiculturalism live in areas unaffected by it ???

1) Take your pick, depending on the definition of multiculturalism you want to apply! https://tinyurl.com/y8y34kn5 I think Britain has made a fair, though imperfect, job of multiculturalism, as have many other countries. The problems seem to me to arise when migrants seek to import their native culture with them, and are surprised when the native population interpret that as the new guest trying to redecorate the living room to suit themselves.

 

2) Vindaloo and pyjamas! :-D I suppose the greatest gift from multiculturalism is our language, though you may not have wanted to go quite that far back. But in reality, can anything be claimed to be intrinsically British?

 

3) But do they? Our largest city is also our most multicultural, and most people seem just to get on. Much depends on how long ago the migrants arrived, with significant inflows into areas where previously there had been little migration causing the greatest friction.

[jumpstart]

Birdbrain - 2020-06-18 6:37 PM

 

Bulletguy - 2020-06-18 6:03 PM

 

StuartO - 2020-06-18 9:11 AM

 

Well we've got this discussion going - and it was a slow sttart as you all hestitated to get involved and to work out how you could respond. And we've had the usual polarised positions reasserted,so that's out of the way. So what about being constructive?

 

Bullet seems thinks we need to concentrate of getting everyone to accept that we're a multicultural society these days and everything will follow from that - which strikes me as fanciful and indeed t simply hasn't happened and probably never will on its own.

That we are a multicultural country is historical fact so cannot be ignored and there are many articles covering it such as this short article; https://greatbritishmag.co.uk/ask-a-brit/is-the-uk-multicultural/

 

For sure some people don't accept we are, including some white British. Quite why i've no idea though much seems to be down to their dislike of skin colour rather than a foreign accent. How will they cope when they find the surgeon about to save their life is black or brown? To me it's the person within that matters more than colour, race or whatever else.

 

Never heard anyone deny we are a multicultural country ... I have heard many deny that we dont live in multicultural harmony though ... Bradford , Leicester , Luton , Oldham etc etc etc maybe tell the story better ... Can anyone tell me the benefits that Britain or any other country has had through multiculturalism and what they have gained because of it ???

 

I would say Canada with in influx of French, American, British, Chinese, Inuit. Benefit is difficult, because generally it’s not planned it’s something that happens.

Some South American countries ar3 quite diverse, maybe even Russia.

[Bulletguy]

Birdbrain - 2020-06-18 6:37 PM

 

Bulletguy - 2020-06-18 6:03 PM

 

StuartO - 2020-06-18 9:11 AM

 

Well we've got this discussion going - and it was a slow sttart as you all hestitated to get involved and to work out how you could respond. And we've had the usual polarised positions reasserted,so that's out of the way. So what about being constructive?

 

Bullet seems thinks we need to concentrate of getting everyone to accept that we're a multicultural society these days and everything will follow from that - which strikes me as fanciful and indeed t simply hasn't happened and probably never will on its own.

That we are a multicultural country is historical fact so cannot be ignored and there are many articles covering it such as this short article; https://greatbritishmag.co.uk/ask-a-brit/is-the-uk-multicultural/

 

For sure some people don't accept we are, including some white British. Quite why i've no idea though much seems to be down to their dislike of skin colour rather than a foreign accent. How will they cope when they find the surgeon about to save their life is black or brown? To me it's the person within that matters more than colour, race or whatever else.

 

Never heard anyone deny we are a multicultural country ... I have heard many deny that we dont live in multicultural harmony though ... Bradford , Leicester , Luton , Oldham etc etc etc maybe tell the story better ...

Any that deny we don't live in multicultural harmony are agreeing that we do!

 

Can anyone tell me the benefits that Britain or any other country has had through multiculturalism and what they have gained because of it ???

Asians gave us food and black people, their music.

[Birdbrain]

Brian Kirby - 2020-06-18 6:47 PM

 

Birdbrain - 2020-06-18 9:29 AM...…………………………

1) Which countries have made a success of multiculturalism ??? ...

2) What benefits has multiculturalism brought to Britain that we wouldnt have had without it ???

3) Why do those who generally champion multiculturalism live in areas unaffected by it ???

1) Take your pick, depending on the definition of multiculturalism you want to apply! https://tinyurl.com/y8y34kn5 I think Britain has made a fair, though imperfect, job of multiculturalism, as have many other countries. The problems seem to me to arise when migrants seek to import their native culture with them, and are surprised when the native population interpret that as the new guest trying to redecorate the living room to suit themselves.

 

2) Vindaloo and pyjamas! :-D I suppose the greatest gift from multiculturalism is our language, though you may not have wanted to go quite that far back. But in reality, can anything be claimed to be intrinsically British?

 

3) But do they? Our largest city is also our most multicultural, and most people seem just to get on. Much depends on how long ago the migrants arrived, with significant inflows into areas where previously there had been little migration causing the greatest friction.

 

1 ... If you believe Britain is a shining light in the modern world for modern day multiculturalism success after the last few weeks alone me thinks you have issues

2 ... "Vindaloo and pyjamas" are your greatest gift of multiculturalism ???

3 ... Our largest city may well be multicultural but again if you believe most "get on" I think you are in a dream world , they may get on in the affluent areas but dig deeper like in most of our multicultural towns and cities and you have those that stick mainly to their own