Guest pelmetman Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 jumpstart - 2020-06-21 10:57 AM Birdbrain - 2020-06-21 10:22 AM StuartO - 2020-06-21 8:35 AM Birdbrain - 2020-06-20 6:26 PM If "Of course its saying its not a failure , so it works" then show an area in Bradford it does ??? ... Birdbrain, you can of course claim that Bradford is an example of "failing" multiculturalism if you know that there are lots of problems there but does that have any implications other than that more effort is required? Is it not just as useful to say the multculturalism isn't working effectively so far in Bradford, all of us must try harder? Or are you trying to say that multiculturalism can never work in Bradford or in the many other places in UK where it isn't working well at the moment, and we therefore need a different way forward to deal with the fact that Bradford is now, as a matter of fact, a multicultural place? Surely you aren't thinking of some sort of massive ethnic cleansing operation in UK. like the expulsion by the military of an entire racial group from Burma/Myanmar recently towards Banglladesh? Can you even envisage any practical means by which even one town/city like Bradford could be successfully ethnically cleansed in UK, let alone lots of them? Which border would they be driven across? Can you realistically expect them to be allowed into the country across that border? Or do you envisage dividing UK into separate territories for the different ethnic and racial groups to create an Apartheid-type solution - in which case how would you categorise the large numbers of mixed race people who are UK Citizens these days? Or do, God forbid, envisage some sort of final solution, Nazi style, as you seek to recreate a whites-only perfect Yorkshire again? Unless you are thinking in these fanciful terms, it can have no value to argue over whether the present situation amounts to failure, if the way forward has to be towards better, more successful multicultural existance, whatever that takes. Don't we all need to face up to that? Stuart I havent said I want to ethnically cleanse anywhere , I dont ignore the disgusting treatment of Christians at the hands of Muslims in many parts of the world and I would never suggest ethnic cleansing ... I aren't the person to ask what is to be done here in the UK , I didn't invite in large numbers of folk who do not want to integrate or have anything to do with the British way of life ... I'll leave the solutions to others and good luck to them because unless you know the areas of Bradford affected by the failure of multiculturalism you cant possibly grasp the size of the problem ... Bradford will become basically a Muslim only area around the city centre , much of it already is as the whites move further away and that picture is replicated in many of our towns and cities ... Now my starting point would be to ask those white folk why they are moving out and not to just dismiss their concerns as raciiiiist You chose to ignore the disgusting treatment of Palestinians. You chose to ignore the murders of Israelies by Palestinians *-) ......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdbrain Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 jumpstart - 2020-06-21 10:57 AM Birdbrain - 2020-06-21 10:22 AM StuartO - 2020-06-21 8:35 AM Birdbrain - 2020-06-20 6:26 PM If "Of course its saying its not a failure , so it works" then show an area in Bradford it does ??? ... Birdbrain, you can of course claim that Bradford is an example of "failing" multiculturalism if you know that there are lots of problems there but does that have any implications other than that more effort is required? Is it not just as useful to say the multculturalism isn't working effectively so far in Bradford, all of us must try harder? Or are you trying to say that multiculturalism can never work in Bradford or in the many other places in UK where it isn't working well at the moment, and we therefore need a different way forward to deal with the fact that Bradford is now, as a matter of fact, a multicultural place? Surely you aren't thinking of some sort of massive ethnic cleansing operation in UK. like the expulsion by the military of an entire racial group from Burma/Myanmar recently towards Banglladesh? Can you even envisage any practical means by which even one town/city like Bradford could be successfully ethnically cleansed in UK, let alone lots of them? Which border would they be driven across? Can you realistically expect them to be allowed into the country across that border? Or do you envisage dividing UK into separate territories for the different ethnic and racial groups to create an Apartheid-type solution - in which case how would you categorise the large numbers of mixed race people who are UK Citizens these days? Or do, God forbid, envisage some sort of final solution, Nazi style, as you seek to recreate a whites-only perfect Yorkshire again? Unless you are thinking in these fanciful terms, it can have no value to argue over whether the present situation amounts to failure, if the way forward has to be towards better, more successful multicultural existance, whatever that takes. Don't we all need to face up to that? Stuart I havent said I want to ethnically cleanse anywhere , I dont ignore the disgusting treatment of Christians at the hands of Muslims in many parts of the world and I would never suggest ethnic cleansing ... I aren't the person to ask what is to be done here in the UK , I didn't invite in large numbers of folk who do not want to integrate or have anything to do with the British way of life ... I'll leave the solutions to others and good luck to them because unless you know the areas of Bradford affected by the failure of multiculturalism you cant possibly grasp the size of the problem ... Bradford will become basically a Muslim only area around the city centre , much of it already is as the whites move further away and that picture is replicated in many of our towns and cities ... Now my starting point would be to ask those white folk why they are moving out and not to just dismiss their concerns as raciiiiist You chose to ignore the disgusting treatment of Palestinians. You're right ... I apologise ... I think the treatment of Palestinian child suicide bombers by other Palestinians is disgusting ... Sorry about forgetting them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumpstart Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 Birdbrain - 2020-06-21 11:45 AM jumpstart - 2020-06-21 10:57 AM Birdbrain - 2020-06-21 10:22 AM StuartO - 2020-06-21 8:35 AM Birdbrain - 2020-06-20 6:26 PM If "Of course its saying its not a failure , so it works" then show an area in Bradford it does ??? ... Birdbrain, you can of course claim that Bradford is an example of "failing" multiculturalism if you know that there are lots of problems there but does that have any implications other than that more effort is required? Is it not just as useful to say the multculturalism isn't working effectively so far in Bradford, all of us must try harder? Or are you trying to say that multiculturalism can never work in Bradford or in the many other places in UK where it isn't working well at the moment, and we therefore need a different way forward to deal with the fact that Bradford is now, as a matter of fact, a multicultural place? Surely you aren't thinking of some sort of massive ethnic cleansing operation in UK. like the expulsion by the military of an entire racial group from Burma/Myanmar recently towards Banglladesh? Can you even envisage any practical means by which even one town/city like Bradford could be successfully ethnically cleansed in UK, let alone lots of them? Which border would they be driven across? Can you realistically expect them to be allowed into the country across that border? Or do you envisage dividing UK into separate territories for the different ethnic and racial groups to create an Apartheid-type solution - in which case how would you categorise the large numbers of mixed race people who are UK Citizens these days? Or do, God forbid, envisage some sort of final solution, Nazi style, as you seek to recreate a whites-only perfect Yorkshire again? Unless you are thinking in these fanciful terms, it can have no value to argue over whether the present situation amounts to failure, if the way forward has to be towards better, more successful multicultural existance, whatever that takes. Don't we all need to face up to that? Stuart I havent said I want to ethnically cleanse anywhere , I dont ignore the disgusting treatment of Christians at the hands of Muslims in many parts of the world and I would never suggest ethnic cleansing ... I aren't the person to ask what is to be done here in the UK , I didn't invite in large numbers of folk who do not want to integrate or have anything to do with the British way of life ... I'll leave the solutions to others and good luck to them because unless you know the areas of Bradford affected by the failure of multiculturalism you cant possibly grasp the size of the problem ... Bradford will become basically a Muslim only area around the city centre , much of it already is as the whites move further away and that picture is replicated in many of our towns and cities ... Now my starting point would be to ask those white folk why they are moving out and not to just dismiss their concerns as raciiiiist You chose to ignore the disgusting treatment of Palestinians. You're right ... I apologise ... I think the treatment of Palestinian child suicide bombers by other Palestinians is disgusting ... Sorry about forgetting them You are happy to ethnically cleanse Israel. Don’t forget all Israeli’s are terrorists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 jumpstart - 2020-06-21 1:30 PM You are happy to ethnically cleanse Israel. Don’t forget all Israeli’s are terrorists. Have you ever been to Israel? :-| ....... I have in the 70's, and it was pretty obvious their neighbours racism/hate hadn't improved in 1975+ years *-) ....... They so hated the Jews God they even started their own gang/religion about about 600 years later :D ...... Claiming the same god? :-S ....... Fortunatly being a Atheist/Infidel I don't give a sh*t :D ....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 pelmetman - 2020-06-21 3:53 PM jumpstart - 2020-06-21 1:30 PM You are happy to ethnically cleanse Israel. Don’t forget all Israeli’s are terrorists. Have you ever been to Israel? :-| ....... I have in the 70's....... Here we go again! *-) Where did you dock......Sea of Galilee harbour? (lol)(lol)(lol)(lol)(lol)(lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 Bulletguy - 2020-06-21 4:05 PM pelmetman - 2020-06-21 3:53 PM jumpstart - 2020-06-21 1:30 PM You are happy to ethnically cleanse Israel. Don’t forget all Israeli’s are terrorists. Have you ever been to Israel? :-| ....... I have in the 70's....... Here we go again! *-) Where did you dock......Sea of Galilee harbour? (lol)(lol)(lol)(lol)(lol)(lol) Nope ......Haifa ;-) ...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumpstart Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 pelmetman - 2020-06-21 3:53 PM jumpstart - 2020-06-21 1:30 PM You are happy to ethnically cleanse Israel. Don’t forget all Israeli’s are terrorists. Have you ever been to Israel? :-| ....... I have in the 70's, and it was pretty obvious their neighbours racism/hate hadn't improved in 1975+ years *-) ....... They so hated the Jews God they even started their own gang/religion about about 600 years later :D ...... Claiming the same god? :-S ....... Fortunatly being a Atheist/Infidel I don't give a sh*t :D ....... Pretty obvious Isreal started with terrorism. British forces having fought off the Nazi’s had to fight the Israeli terrorists who were murdering civilians and British soldiers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumpstart Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 Trump is happy to fund the annexation of all Palestinian’s land and the systematic segregation of Palestinians. All lives matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 jumpstart - 2020-06-21 4:35 PM pelmetman - 2020-06-21 3:53 PM jumpstart - 2020-06-21 1:30 PM You are happy to ethnically cleanse Israel. Don’t forget all Israeli’s are terrorists. Have you ever been to Israel? :-| ....... I have in the 70's, and it was pretty obvious their neighbours racism/hate hadn't improved in 1975+ years *-) ....... They so hated the Jews God they even started their own gang/religion about about 600 years later :D ...... Claiming the same god? :-S ....... Fortunatly being a Atheist/Infidel I don't give a sh*t :D ....... Pretty obvious Isreal started with terrorism. British forces having fought off the Nazi’s had to fight the Israeli terrorists who were murdering civilians and British soldiers. Isn't that how nations have been formed for ever? *-) ......... It appears to me that with your biased blinkers you are just a reverse BLM ;-) ...... Except they like to use what happened a few hundred years ago to fight their arguments......where as you like to use what happened a few decades ago to fight your arguments *-) ....... Which is prolly why I have little time for yours or theirs arguments :-| ....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdbrain Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 jumpstart - 2020-06-21 4:38 PM Trump is happy to fund the annexation of all Palestinian’s land and the systematic segregation of Palestinians. All lives matter. Confused??? ... "All lives matter" ... "All Israelis are fair game" ... Which one is it ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumpstart Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 Birdbrain - 2020-06-21 5:43 PM jumpstart - 2020-06-21 4:38 PM Trump is happy to fund the annexation of all Palestinian’s land and the systematic segregation of Palestinians. All lives matter. Confused??? ... "All lives matter" ... "All Israelis are fair game" ... Which one is it ??? You certainly seem permanently confused. Palestinians lives matter as much as anybody else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumpstart Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 pelmetman - 2020-06-21 4:49 PM jumpstart - 2020-06-21 4:35 PM pelmetman - 2020-06-21 3:53 PM jumpstart - 2020-06-21 1:30 PM You are happy to ethnically cleanse Israel. Don’t forget all Israeli’s are terrorists. Have you ever been to Israel? :-| ....... I have in the 70's, and it was pretty obvious their neighbours racism/hate hadn't improved in 1975+ years *-) ....... They so hated the Jews God they even started their own gang/religion about about 600 years later :D ...... Claiming the same god? :-S ....... Fortunatly being a Atheist/Infidel I don't give a sh*t :D ....... Pretty obvious Isreal started with terrorism. British forces having fought off the Nazi’s had to fight the Israeli terrorists who were murdering civilians and British soldiers. Isn't that how nations have been formed for ever? *-) ......... It appears to me that with your biased blinkers you are just a reverse BLM ;-) ...... Except they like to use what happened a few hundred years ago to fight their arguments......where as you like to use what happened a few decades ago to fight your arguments *-) ....... Which is prolly why I have little time for yours or theirs arguments :-| ....... I note you don’t disagree that the Israeli’s were terrorists. Which was my point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdbrain Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 jumpstart - 2020-06-21 6:00 PM Birdbrain - 2020-06-21 5:43 PM jumpstart - 2020-06-21 4:38 PM Trump is happy to fund the annexation of all Palestinian’s land and the systematic segregation of Palestinians. All lives matter. Confused??? ... "All lives matter" ... "All Israelis are fair game" ... Which one is it ??? You certainly seem permanently confused. Palestinians lives matter as much as anybody else. I asked a reasonable question given your previous claim ... Which one is it , "All lives matter" or they dont with your "All Israelis are fair game" line ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 jumpstart - 2020-06-21 6:03 PM pelmetman - 2020-06-21 4:49 PM jumpstart - 2020-06-21 4:35 PM pelmetman - 2020-06-21 3:53 PM jumpstart - 2020-06-21 1:30 PM You are happy to ethnically cleanse Israel. Don’t forget all Israeli’s are terrorists. Have you ever been to Israel? :-| ....... I have in the 70's, and it was pretty obvious their neighbours racism/hate hadn't improved in 1975+ years *-) ....... They so hated the Jews God they even started their own gang/religion about about 600 years later :D ...... Claiming the same god? :-S ....... Fortunatly being a Atheist/Infidel I don't give a sh*t :D ....... Pretty obvious Isreal started with terrorism. British forces having fought off the Nazi’s had to fight the Israeli terrorists who were murdering civilians and British soldiers. Isn't that how nations have been formed for ever? *-) ......... It appears to me that with your biased blinkers you are just a reverse BLM ;-) ...... Except they like to use what happened a few hundred years ago to fight their arguments......where as you like to use what happened a few decades ago to fight your arguments *-) ....... Which is prolly why I have little time for yours or theirs arguments :-| ....... I note you don’t disagree that the Israeli’s were terrorists. Which was my point. Your point was pointless ;-) ......... Coz your point would mean the Roman's, Saxon's, Norman's were terrorists which they were when they invaded 8-) ....... I guess we got over it in the end :D ....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 pelmetman - 2020-06-21 11:37 AM StuartO - 2020-06-21 9:19 AM I agree that we need to impose more credible prison sentences and that they should be served in full - but how do we also prevent or solve consequential extra problems? I reckon the prospect of no probation and another 5 years automatically added to your sentence would soon curb the career criminals urge to commit crimes :-| ........ I also suspect the cost of keeping prisoners in prison is a damn sight cheaper than the revolving door justice system we currently have *-) ....... Being a hang em flog em Tory....... I have long thought the "R" would should stand for retribution rather than rehabilitation ;-) ......... The evidence isn't with you, though, Dave. Just think how many ways of punishing miscreants have been tried over the centuries, from indefinite incarceration in chains to hanging, drawing and quartering with the prisoner being cut down from the scaffold before death and then eviscerated alive and quartered. Did any stop crime? We've burned alive, drowned on the ducking stool, boiled, publicly hanged and left the bodies on the noose as a warning, crushed, flogged, blinded, amputated limbs, put on the rack, branded, cut out tongues, transported, castrated, thrown from high places, staked out in deserts, sewn cockroaches under their eyelids, crucified, put in stocks, and pilloried (and probably a few more I haven't heard about) - and still crimes have continued to be committed. And after all that, you still think deterrence works? The USA has the highest prison population per 100,000 of population in the world, at 655. It still has crime. By comparison the UK has 140, Spain 124, France 105 and Germany 77. All still have crime. And don't start blaming immigrants because, as a percentage of total population, the USA is 14.13% immigrant, the UK 12.79%, Spain 12.57%, France 11.61% and Germany 14.44%. Statistically, the majority of those in prison come from the poorer segments of the population, mainly low skilled and unskilled manual workers, mainly male. Go figure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted June 21, 2020 Author Share Posted June 21, 2020 Birdbrain - 2020-06-21 10:22 AM Stuart I havent said I want to ethnically cleanse anywhere , I dont ignore the disgusting treatment of Christians at the hands of Muslims in many parts of the world and I would never suggest ethnic cleansing ... I aren't the person to ask what is to be done here in the UK , I didn't invite in large numbers of folk who do not want to integrate or have anything to do with the British way of life ... I'll leave the solutions to others and good luck to them because unless you know the areas of Bradford affected by the failure of multiculturalism you cant possibly grasp the size of the problem ... Bradford will become basically a Muslim only area around the city centre , much of it already is as the whites move further away and that picture is replicated in many of our towns and cities ... Now my starting point would be to ask those white folk why they are moving out and not to just dismiss their concerns as raciiiiist I knew you we're thinking of extreme solutions and I mentioned then only to illustrate what lay ahead if there was to be any thought of expelling all the non-white people from UK; it's just not an option. Showing why it's not an option should however help us all to realise that we canot turn the clock back, so we need to develop a way of making multicultural existance work for everyone. That doesn't mean we have to "surrender" to non whites in any way, but it does mean we all (including all UK non-whites) need to be stakeholders and to accept responsibility for working towards a solution - including people like you. No one can opt out and just keep moaning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted June 21, 2020 Author Share Posted June 21, 2020 Brian Kirby - 2020-06-21 6:51 PM pelmetman - 2020-06-21 11:37 AM StuartO - 2020-06-21 9:19 AM I agree that we need to impose more credible prison sentences and that they should be served in full - but how do we also prevent or solve consequential extra problems? I reckon the prospect of no probation and another 5 years automatically added to your sentence would soon curb the career criminals urge to commit crimes :-| ........ I also suspect the cost of keeping prisoners in prison is a damn sight cheaper than the revolving door justice system we currently have *-) ....... Being a hang em flog em Tory....... I have long thought the "R" would should stand for retribution rather than rehabilitation ;-) ......... The evidence isn't with you, though, Dave. Just think how many ways of punishing miscreants have been tried over the centuries, from indefinite incarceration in chains to hanging, drawing and quartering with the prisoner being cut down from the scaffold before death and then eviscerated alive and quartered. Did any stop crime? We've burned alive, drowned on the ducking stool, boiled, publicly hanged and left the bodies on the noose as a warning, crushed, flogged, blinded, amputated limbs, put on the rack, branded, cut out tongues, transported, castrated, thrown from high places, staked out in deserts, sewn cockroaches under their eyelids, crucified, put in stocks, and pilloried (and probably a few more I haven't heard about) - and still crimes have continued to be committed. And after all that, you still think deterrence works? The USA has the highest prison population per 100,000 of population in the world, at 655. It still has crime. By comparison the UK has 140, Spain 124, France 105 and Germany 77. All still have crime. And don't start blaming immigrants because, as a percentage of total population, the USA is 14.13% immigrant, the UK 12.79%, Spain 12.57%, France 11.61% and Germany 14.44%. Statistically, the majority of those in prison come from the poorer segments of the population, mainly low skilled and unskilled manual workers, mainly male. Go figure. Brian, we gave up lots of ways of punishing people not because they didn't work as deterents but for other reasons. We may need to think again - for example about capital punishment. Our MPs voted against it but public opinion was in favour and probably would be again. Corporal punishment also had a salutary effectiveness - remember birching in the Isle of Mann was still used when I was young and no one ever wanted to undergo it again. Quick, cheap and very effective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 StuartO - 2020-06-21 6:53 PM Birdbrain - 2020-06-21 10:22 AM Stuart I havent said I want to ethnically cleanse anywhere , I dont ignore the disgusting treatment of Christians at the hands of Muslims in many parts of the world and I would never suggest ethnic cleansing ... I aren't the person to ask what is to be done here in the UK , I didn't invite in large numbers of folk who do not want to integrate or have anything to do with the British way of life ... I'll leave the solutions to others and good luck to them because unless you know the areas of Bradford affected by the failure of multiculturalism you cant possibly grasp the size of the problem ... Bradford will become basically a Muslim only area around the city centre , much of it already is as the whites move further away and that picture is replicated in many of our towns and cities ... Now my starting point would be to ask those white folk why they are moving out and not to just dismiss their concerns as raciiiiist I knew you we're thinking of extreme solutions and I mentioned then only to illustrate what lay ahead if there was to be any thought of expelling all the non-white people from UK; it's just not an option. Showing why it's not an option should however help us all to realise that we canot turn the clock back, so we need to develop a way of making multicultural existance work for everyone. That doesn't mean we have to "surrender" to non whites in any way, but it does mean we all (including all UK non-whites) need to be stakeholders and to accept responsibility for working towards a solution - including people like you. No one can opt out and just keep moaning. Disagree ;-) ....... It's those that moan the most that appear to get the most in my experience *-) ...... Why else have the BLM racists managed to get away with toppling statues of our history? :-| ........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 Birdbrain - 2020-06-18 9:29 AM...……………...Which countries have made a success of multiculturalism ??? ... What benefits has multiculturalism brought to Britain that we wouldnt have had without it ??? Why do those who generally champion multiculturalism live in areas unaffected by it ??? Several of us have offered answers, and you've rejected them all. So, either you are demanding an unrealistically high pass-mark, or we are at cross-purposes over the meaning of multiculturalism. In other words, comparing apples with oranges. So, help us out a bit Antony. What is your definition of multiculturalism? (So that we are all talking about the same thing.) How are you measuring whether or not it is succeeding? (So that we are all applying a common standard.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 StuartO - 2020-06-21 6:59 PM Brian Kirby - 2020-06-21 6:51 PM pelmetman - 2020-06-21 11:37 AM StuartO - 2020-06-21 9:19 AM I agree that we need to impose more credible prison sentences and that they should be served in full - but how do we also prevent or solve consequential extra problems? I reckon the prospect of no probation and another 5 years automatically added to your sentence would soon curb the career criminals urge to commit crimes :-| ........ I also suspect the cost of keeping prisoners in prison is a damn sight cheaper than the revolving door justice system we currently have *-) ....... Being a hang em flog em Tory....... I have long thought the "R" would should stand for retribution rather than rehabilitation ;-) ......... The evidence isn't with you, though, Dave. Just think how many ways of punishing miscreants have been tried over the centuries, from indefinite incarceration in chains to hanging, drawing and quartering with the prisoner being cut down from the scaffold before death and then eviscerated alive and quartered. Did any stop crime? We've burned alive, drowned on the ducking stool, boiled, publicly hanged and left the bodies on the noose as a warning, crushed, flogged, blinded, amputated limbs, put on the rack, branded, cut out tongues, transported, castrated, thrown from high places, staked out in deserts, sewn cockroaches under their eyelids, crucified, put in stocks, and pilloried (and probably a few more I haven't heard about) - and still crimes have continued to be committed. And after all that, you still think deterrence works? The USA has the highest prison population per 100,000 of population in the world, at 655. It still has crime. By comparison the UK has 140, Spain 124, France 105 and Germany 77. All still have crime. And don't start blaming immigrants because, as a percentage of total population, the USA is 14.13% immigrant, the UK 12.79%, Spain 12.57%, France 11.61% and Germany 14.44%. Statistically, the majority of those in prison come from the poorer segments of the population, mainly low skilled and unskilled manual workers, mainly male. Go figure. Brian, we gave up lots of ways of punishing people not because they didn't work as deterents but for other reasons. We may need to think again - for example about capital punishment. Our MPs voted against it but public opinion was in favour and probably would be again. Corporal punishment also had a salutary effectiveness - remember birching in the Isle of Mann was still used when I was young and no one ever wanted to undergo it again. Quick, cheap and very effective. Indeed :D ........ Having won Brexit ;-) ........ Perhaps bring back hanging of murderers should be my next hobby horse? >:-) ...... I'll save hanging drawing and quartering of Remoaners for another day (lol) (lol) (lol) ......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 Brian Kirby - 2020-06-21 7:06 PM Birdbrain - 2020-06-18 9:29 AM...……………...Which countries have made a success of multiculturalism ??? ... What benefits has multiculturalism brought to Britain that we wouldnt have had without it ??? Why do those who generally champion multiculturalism live in areas unaffected by it ??? Several of us have offered answers, and you've rejected them all. So, either you are demanding an unrealistically high pass-mark, or we are at cross-purposes over the meaning of multiculturalism. In other words, comparing apples with oranges. So, help us out a bit Antony. What is your definition of multiculturalism? (So that we are all talking about the same thing.) How are you measuring whether or not it is succeeding? (So that we are all applying a common standard.) Lets start with Mono cultures? ;-) ......... Are you happy that they have established and are spreading in our towns and cities? :-| ........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumpstart Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 pelmetman - 2020-06-21 6:49 PM jumpstart - 2020-06-21 6:03 PM pelmetman - 2020-06-21 4:49 PM jumpstart - 2020-06-21 4:35 PM pelmetman - 2020-06-21 3:53 PM jumpstart - 2020-06-21 1:30 PM You are happy to ethnically cleanse Israel. Don’t forget all Israeli’s are terrorists. Have you ever been to Israel? :-| ....... I have in the 70's, and it was pretty obvious their neighbours racism/hate hadn't improved in 1975+ years *-) ....... They so hated the Jews God they even started their own gang/religion about about 600 years later :D ...... Claiming the same god? :-S ....... Fortunatly being a Atheist/Infidel I don't give a sh*t :D ....... Pretty obvious Isreal started with terrorism. British forces having fought off the Nazi’s had to fight the Israeli terrorists who were murdering civilians and British soldiers. Isn't that how nations have been formed for ever? *-) ......... It appears to me that with your biased blinkers you are just a reverse BLM ;-) ...... Except they like to use what happened a few hundred years ago to fight their arguments......where as you like to use what happened a few decades ago to fight your arguments *-) ....... Which is prolly why I have little time for yours or theirs arguments :-| ....... I note you don’t disagree that the Israeli’s were terrorists. Which was my point. Your point was pointless ;-) ......... Coz your point would mean the Roman's, Saxon's, Norman's were terrorists which they were when they invaded 8-) ....... I guess we got over it in the end :D ....... You obviously missed it ...as usual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 StuartO - 2020-06-21 6:59 PM Brian Kirby - 2020-06-21 6:51 PM pelmetman - 2020-06-21 11:37 AM StuartO - 2020-06-21 9:19 AM I agree that we need to impose more credible prison sentences and that they should be served in full - but how do we also prevent or solve consequential extra problems? I reckon the prospect of no probation and another 5 years automatically added to your sentence would soon curb the career criminals urge to commit crimes :-| ........ I also suspect the cost of keeping prisoners in prison is a damn sight cheaper than the revolving door justice system we currently have *-) ....... Being a hang em flog em Tory....... I have long thought the "R" would should stand for retribution rather than rehabilitation ;-) ......... The evidence isn't with you, though, Dave. Just think how many ways of punishing miscreants have been tried over the centuries, from indefinite incarceration in chains to hanging, drawing and quartering with the prisoner being cut down from the scaffold before death and then eviscerated alive and quartered. Did any stop crime? We've burned alive, drowned on the ducking stool, boiled, publicly hanged and left the bodies on the noose as a warning, crushed, flogged, blinded, amputated limbs, put on the rack, branded, cut out tongues, transported, castrated, thrown from high places, staked out in deserts, sewn cockroaches under their eyelids, crucified, put in stocks, and pilloried (and probably a few more I haven't heard about) - and still crimes have continued to be committed. And after all that, you still think deterrence works? The USA has the highest prison population per 100,000 of population in the world, at 655. It still has crime. By comparison the UK has 140, Spain 124, France 105 and Germany 77. All still have crime. And don't start blaming immigrants because, as a percentage of total population, the USA is 14.13% immigrant, the UK 12.79%, Spain 12.57%, France 11.61% and Germany 14.44%. Statistically, the majority of those in prison come from the poorer segments of the population, mainly low skilled and unskilled manual workers, mainly male. Go figure. Brian, we gave up lots of ways of punishing people not because they didn't work as deterents but for other reasons. We may need to think again - for example about capital punishment. Our MPs voted against it but public opinion was in favour and probably would be again. Corporal punishment also had a salutary effectiveness - remember birching in the Isle of Mann was still used when I was young and no one ever wanted to undergo it again. Quick, cheap and very effective. The problem with restoring capital punishment is the case has to be 100% cast iron faultless and no human being can guarantee that, even with the scientific advances of DNA. Who wants the responsibility of putting an innocent person to death? Ask the 'hang 'em flog 'em set if they're prepared to sacrifice their life if it turns out to be the wrong one and they'd be the first to scarper. As for corporal punishment, i'm all for that in schools but you won't find many that are. Discipline starts early and should begin at home but for a variety of reasons some parents can't cope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdbrain Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 StuartO - 2020-06-21 6:53 PM Birdbrain - 2020-06-21 10:22 AM Stuart I havent said I want to ethnically cleanse anywhere , I dont ignore the disgusting treatment of Christians at the hands of Muslims in many parts of the world and I would never suggest ethnic cleansing ... I aren't the person to ask what is to be done here in the UK , I didn't invite in large numbers of folk who do not want to integrate or have anything to do with the British way of life ... I'll leave the solutions to others and good luck to them because unless you know the areas of Bradford affected by the failure of multiculturalism you cant possibly grasp the size of the problem ... Bradford will become basically a Muslim only area around the city centre , much of it already is as the whites move further away and that picture is replicated in many of our towns and cities ... Now my starting point would be to ask those white folk why they are moving out and not to just dismiss their concerns as raciiiiist I knew you we're thinking of extreme solutions and I mentioned then only to illustrate what lay ahead if there was to be any thought of expelling all the non-white people from UK; it's just not an option. Showing why it's not an option should however help us all to realise that we canot turn the clock back, so we need to develop a way of making multicultural existance work for everyone. That doesn't mean we have to "surrender" to non whites in any way, but it does mean we all (including all UK non-whites) need to be stakeholders and to accept responsibility for working towards a solution - including people like you. No one can opt out and just keep moaning. What exactly Stuart is my "extreme solution" ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicepix Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 StuartO - 2020-06-21 10:19 AM pelmetman - 2020-06-21 7:56 AM Violet1956 - 2020-06-20 1:22 PM Seems like the report on the state of relationships between different communities referred to in Antony’s link concentrates on lawless elements within them. The answer lies in the application of the law without fear or favour, affection or ill will. The answer lies in building more prisons and doing away with probation, along with adding another 5 years to the sentence of a career criminal everytime they get caught again :-| ........ It'll work out safer for the law abiding majority and cheaper in the long run ;-) ......... Our prison system currently sets itself a dual objectives of confinement (to punish and/or protect the public) but also rehabilitation, which is every prisoner's right, starting from day one. And as I understand it every prisoner has to have some hope of eventual release, so even life sentences don't ever mean locking people up and throwing away the key. We also apply minimum standards of humane treatment, so that prisoners have to be allowed to watch TV or whatever it is. My cousin was a policeman in Preston in the early 1990s and he arranged to take our vistor from Russia in to see how Preson Police Station worked. We also arranged for her to visit the DSS Offices in Preston, to hear about our benefits system. She was a teacher so I also arranged for her to visit my old Grammar School. She was with us as the mother of a girl with whom our daughter had done a school exchange, so she'd tagged along for the UK phase. This was just after the Strangeways Prison Riots and Preston Police Station was ,along with lots of other police stations, accommodating Strangeways prisoners. TVs had been installed for them as their entitlement and because the policestation had limited cattering, they were allowed to order food from takeaways; one of the things which absolutely staggered our Russian visitor was the sight of the piled up wasted food which the prisoners hadn't eaten. She couldn't believe our benefit system either of course. I listened to a talk to my Rotary Club by a former UK Probation Officer who had gone to the USA on an exchange while he was serving, observing how they did it over there. The US Probabtion Service is a uniformed one and they, like US policemen, have powers of arrest and carry firearms. If an offender misses even one review appointment they go after him, arrest him and he goes back to jail. How would you deal with that in UK, they asked their UK visitor? Well, he said, we would write him a letter, if we had an address. I don't see how we could ever build enough extra prisons and provide enough rehabilitation facilities and humane amenities to cope with much bigger numbers, nor would our crumbling probation system cope with the implied expansion. So wouldn't we have to abandon our high expectations of rehabilitating as of right and humane environments and cut the suit according to the cloth as we expanded the capacity of the prison system? And in doing so could we prevent our prisons becoming the extremely cruel and dangerous places like US prisons still are, so that prison destroys any hope that anyone who ever goes in there, even for a short period on pre-trial remand, comes out violated and HIV positive and without any real hope? I agree that we need to impose more credible prison sentences and that they should be served in full - but how do we also prevent or solve consequential extra problems? I have a little experience of this. I was a police officer for 25 years, the majority on the beat. I also worked the Strangeways 'Container' duties where we looked after a dozen or so prisoners at our police station. And I have been called in to assist at prisons in searching for missing inmates or as a back up to their staff in riot situations. I also worked in the Bradford riots situation on mutual aid. Whilst the ideal of every prisoner having the right to work towards a release is noble. From the public's point of view they also have a right to be protected from criminals who cannot or will not reform. There are some people who cannot ever be trusted to live in a society without risk to the public. So the options are execution or life imprisonment in order to fulfill the State's duty to society. My opinion is that the whole legal system needs overhauling. From top to bottom. At the moment there isn't enough deterrent to reduce the level of criminality. There isn't enough rigidity in the Criminal Justice System to ensure that suspects will be properly convicted. There is too much privatisation in the CJS ensuring that private companies make profits by being soft on offenders or simply failing in their duty. Many prisons are not fit for purpose and this creates its own problems. The answer is blindingly simple. Build more and better prisons and fill them by closing the loopholes on the CJS and streamlining the processes. Once the new prisons become full the new deterrent will have the effect of slowing down the crime rate. This means that the older, less suitable prisons can be closed and sold off as the prison population reduces. This will come at a cost and some of the cost can be met by putting prisoners to work. If they choose not to then they lose priviliges. If they opt for work then priviliges, even wages can be paid to family or banked pending their release. It seems to work in the States and it can work in the UK. The caveat is that the decisions made in the legal system should never be swayed by financial reasons as has been levied against the American sytem. Nor should it compete unfairly with local businesses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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