malc d Posted June 22, 2020 Share Posted June 22, 2020 Brian Kirby - 2020-06-22 2:45 PM pelmetman - 2020-06-22 9:14 AM malc d - 2020-06-22 8:49 AM I assume that those who support capital punishment, but accept the possibility of mistakes ( however small that possibility is ) will still support it even if a member of their own family is hanged by mistake ? (?) :-| Seeing as my family are law abiding folk I cant imagine that ever happening ;-) .......... Given the odds I suspect they're at much greater risk of being killed by a released murderer *-) ........ Never heard of Craig and Bentley? I would have thought that Timothy Evans case is even more relevant to the question of " hanging by mistake " I'm amazed that anyone can find " hanging by mistake " a reasonable risk to take. :-( p.s. But I suppose people with no imagination may find it acceptable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdbrain Posted June 22, 2020 Share Posted June 22, 2020 malc d - 2020-06-22 5:27 PM Brian Kirby - 2020-06-22 2:45 PM pelmetman - 2020-06-22 9:14 AM malc d - 2020-06-22 8:49 AM I assume that those who support capital punishment, but accept the possibility of mistakes ( however small that possibility is ) will still support it even if a member of their own family is hanged by mistake ? (?) :-| Seeing as my family are law abiding folk I cant imagine that ever happening ;-) .......... Given the odds I suspect they're at much greater risk of being killed by a released murderer *-) ........ Never heard of Craig and Bentley? I would have thought that Timothy Evans case is even more relevant to the question of " hanging by mistake " I'm amazed that anyone can find " hanging by mistake " a reasonable risk to take. :-( p.s. But I suppose people with no imagination may find it acceptable. Wonder if those who preach about asylum seekers believe 3 innocent deaths in a Reading park is a "reasonable risk to take" or the 22 who died at Manchester Arena , imagination or no imagination Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted June 22, 2020 Share Posted June 22, 2020 Birdbrain - 2020-06-22 4:19 PM Brian Kirby - 2020-06-22 3:38 PM Birdbrain - 2020-06-22 1:57 PM Brian Kirby - 2020-06-22 12:23 PM Birdbrain - 2020-06-22 12:16 PM.......................Well seen as most of us live in the here and now lets look at modern multiculturalism , since the war and seen as we are all good Europeans and fighting to stay part of Europe lets stay in Europe and in the EU and because obviously the EU is so great and many want to stay in it because its so great it should also mean that multiculturalism in those EU countries has been a success ... Which countries in the EU have made a success of multiculturalism since the war ??? Success would be of course folks throughout the country mentioned living together in perfect harmony Are you aware of any country in which "folks throughout the country" .........….live "together in perfect harmony", from any time in recorded history? This sounds awfully like that wonderfully ideal, but unattainable, place, Eutopia. Do you really mean that? Well I don't try and sell multiculturalism as a must have benefit ... If multiculturalism does not bring harmony , the opposite actually what are the benefits of it ??? ... Why do we need to ship in multi-cultures to an already unharmonious place ??? ... Do you have an EU country where multiculturalism has worked ??? Hmmm. Which merely returns us to the first question I asked earlier, which you didn't answer, which was: What is your definition of multiculturalism? (So that we are all talking about the same thing.) You answered my second question, "How are you measuring whether or not it is succeeding? (So that we are all applying a common standard.) by saying "folks throughout the country mentioned living together in perfect harmony", which is not, and never has been, attained in any country - whether ethnically pure or otherwise. You have set a Utopian target that can only be achieved by the Gods - and if ancient literature is any guide, not even by them! So why, if that level of social harmony cannot be attained even in an ethnically pure state, should a multi-ethnic state that cannot achieve that same level of harmony, be judged a failure? This just doesn't make sense. Do what you normally do Brian and Wiki the definition ... You and the likes of you try tell the likes of me that multiculturalism benefits us ... Sell me the benefits or cant you ??? ... I note you still havent supplied an EU country name where multiculturalism has worked It's a courtesy thing, Antony, I asked first! :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdbrain Posted June 22, 2020 Share Posted June 22, 2020 Brian Kirby - 2020-06-22 6:43 PM Birdbrain - 2020-06-22 4:19 PM Brian Kirby - 2020-06-22 3:38 PM Birdbrain - 2020-06-22 1:57 PM Brian Kirby - 2020-06-22 12:23 PM Birdbrain - 2020-06-22 12:16 PM.......................Well seen as most of us live in the here and now lets look at modern multiculturalism , since the war and seen as we are all good Europeans and fighting to stay part of Europe lets stay in Europe and in the EU and because obviously the EU is so great and many want to stay in it because its so great it should also mean that multiculturalism in those EU countries has been a success ... Which countries in the EU have made a success of multiculturalism since the war ??? Success would be of course folks throughout the country mentioned living together in perfect harmony Are you aware of any country in which "folks throughout the country" .........….live "together in perfect harmony", from any time in recorded history? This sounds awfully like that wonderfully ideal, but unattainable, place, Eutopia. Do you really mean that? Well I don't try and sell multiculturalism as a must have benefit ... If multiculturalism does not bring harmony , the opposite actually what are the benefits of it ??? ... Why do we need to ship in multi-cultures to an already unharmonious place ??? ... Do you have an EU country where multiculturalism has worked ??? Hmmm. Which merely returns us to the first question I asked earlier, which you didn't answer, which was: What is your definition of multiculturalism? (So that we are all talking about the same thing.) You answered my second question, "How are you measuring whether or not it is succeeding? (So that we are all applying a common standard.) by saying "folks throughout the country mentioned living together in perfect harmony", which is not, and never has been, attained in any country - whether ethnically pure or otherwise. You have set a Utopian target that can only be achieved by the Gods - and if ancient literature is any guide, not even by them! So why, if that level of social harmony cannot be attained even in an ethnically pure state, should a multi-ethnic state that cannot achieve that same level of harmony, be judged a failure? This just doesn't make sense. Do what you normally do Brian and Wiki the definition ... You and the likes of you try tell the likes of me that multiculturalism benefits us ... Sell me the benefits or cant you ??? ... I note you still havent supplied an EU country name where multiculturalism has worked It's a courtesy thing, Antony, I asked first! :-D Shame you dont show the same "courtesy" when calling members "extremists" or insinuating Stuart posts racist guff ... EU multicultural success stories ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumpstart Posted June 22, 2020 Share Posted June 22, 2020 Birdbrain - 2020-06-22 6:48 PM Brian Kirby - 2020-06-22 6:43 PM Birdbrain - 2020-06-22 4:19 PM Brian Kirby - 2020-06-22 3:38 PM Birdbrain - 2020-06-22 1:57 PM Brian Kirby - 2020-06-22 12:23 PM Birdbrain - 2020-06-22 12:16 PM.......................Well seen as most of us live in the here and now lets look at modern multiculturalism , since the war and seen as we are all good Europeans and fighting to stay part of Europe lets stay in Europe and in the EU and because obviously the EU is so great and many want to stay in it because its so great it should also mean that multiculturalism in those EU countries has been a success ... Which countries in the EU have made a success of multiculturalism since the war ??? Success would be of course folks throughout the country mentioned living together in perfect harmony Are you aware of any country in which "folks throughout the country" .........….live "together in perfect harmony", from any time in recorded history? This sounds awfully like that wonderfully ideal, but unattainable, place, Eutopia. Do you really mean that? Well I don't try and sell multiculturalism as a must have benefit ... If multiculturalism does not bring harmony , the opposite actually what are the benefits of it ??? ... Why do we need to ship in multi-cultures to an already unharmonious place ??? ... Do you have an EU country where multiculturalism has worked ??? Hmmm. Which merely returns us to the first question I asked earlier, which you didn't answer, which was: What is your definition of multiculturalism? (So that we are all talking about the same thing.) You answered my second question, "How are you measuring whether or not it is succeeding? (So that we are all applying a common standard.) by saying "folks throughout the country mentioned living together in perfect harmony", which is not, and never has been, attained in any country - whether ethnically pure or otherwise. You have set a Utopian target that can only be achieved by the Gods - and if ancient literature is any guide, not even by them! So why, if that level of social harmony cannot be attained even in an ethnically pure state, should a multi-ethnic state that cannot achieve that same level of harmony, be judged a failure? This just doesn't make sense. Do what you normally do Brian and Wiki the definition ... You and the likes of you try tell the likes of me that multiculturalism benefits us ... Sell me the benefits or cant you ??? ... I note you still havent supplied an EU country name where multiculturalism has worked It's a courtesy thing, Antony, I asked first! :-D Shame you dont show the same "courtesy" when calling members "extremists" or insinuating Stuart posts racist guff ... EU multicultural success stories ??? If it doesn’t work give me one country in the EU where society has totally broken down? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted June 22, 2020 Share Posted June 22, 2020 StuartO - 2020-06-22 5:01 PM Our BAME prison population is disproportionately high because BAMEs are doing more crime and stopping BAMEs is disproportionate for the same reason. And that’s OK by me. If there is reasonable suspicion why not? Tough on the innocent BAMEs maybe but the more helpful they are (instead of complaining) the sooner crime figures will fall and the level of suspicion will also fall. That's a bit too simplistic imo Stuart and without comparing the identical crimes with white, the sentencing, backgrounds, housing etc of both, it's a bit of a cop out to say black commit more crime. How level is the playing field? Re-offending is also another equation that needs looking at. From what i've seen on various documentaries it's pretty high with the main reason being unable to get work and a roof over their head. Fwiw i think your thread title would have been better titled as "We need a solution for Bad Behaviour". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdbrain Posted June 22, 2020 Share Posted June 22, 2020 jumpstart - 2020-06-22 7:08 PM Birdbrain - 2020-06-22 6:48 PM Brian Kirby - 2020-06-22 6:43 PM Birdbrain - 2020-06-22 4:19 PM Brian Kirby - 2020-06-22 3:38 PM Birdbrain - 2020-06-22 1:57 PM Brian Kirby - 2020-06-22 12:23 PM Birdbrain - 2020-06-22 12:16 PM.......................Well seen as most of us live in the here and now lets look at modern multiculturalism , since the war and seen as we are all good Europeans and fighting to stay part of Europe lets stay in Europe and in the EU and because obviously the EU is so great and many want to stay in it because its so great it should also mean that multiculturalism in those EU countries has been a success ... Which countries in the EU have made a success of multiculturalism since the war ??? Success would be of course folks throughout the country mentioned living together in perfect harmony Are you aware of any country in which "folks throughout the country" .........….live "together in perfect harmony", from any time in recorded history? This sounds awfully like that wonderfully ideal, but unattainable, place, Eutopia. Do you really mean that? Well I don't try and sell multiculturalism as a must have benefit ... If multiculturalism does not bring harmony , the opposite actually what are the benefits of it ??? ... Why do we need to ship in multi-cultures to an already unharmonious place ??? ... Do you have an EU country where multiculturalism has worked ??? Hmmm. Which merely returns us to the first question I asked earlier, which you didn't answer, which was: What is your definition of multiculturalism? (So that we are all talking about the same thing.) You answered my second question, "How are you measuring whether or not it is succeeding? (So that we are all applying a common standard.) by saying "folks throughout the country mentioned living together in perfect harmony", which is not, and never has been, attained in any country - whether ethnically pure or otherwise. You have set a Utopian target that can only be achieved by the Gods - and if ancient literature is any guide, not even by them! So why, if that level of social harmony cannot be attained even in an ethnically pure state, should a multi-ethnic state that cannot achieve that same level of harmony, be judged a failure? This just doesn't make sense. Do what you normally do Brian and Wiki the definition ... You and the likes of you try tell the likes of me that multiculturalism benefits us ... Sell me the benefits or cant you ??? ... I note you still havent supplied an EU country name where multiculturalism has worked It's a courtesy thing, Antony, I asked first! :-D Shame you dont show the same "courtesy" when calling members "extremists" or insinuating Stuart posts racist guff ... EU multicultural success stories ??? If it doesn’t work give me one country in the EU where society has totally broken down? Not for the first time you've lost me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumpstart Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 That’s why I said you were permanently confused..You want confirmation of perfect harmony in ethnic relations in a country. It doesn’t exist. Bit like saying you want evidence everybody is happy in a country. But that doesn’t mean multicultural failure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdbrain Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 jumpstart - 2020-06-23 6:55 AM That’s why I said you were permanently confused..You want confirmation of perfect harmony in ethnic relations in a country. It doesn’t exist. Bit like saying you want evidence everybody is happy in a country. But that doesn’t mean multicultural failure. Thankyou ... "it doesnt exist" ... So why create so much trouble trying to force its existence ... Thankyou for the clear answer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumpstart Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 Birdbrain - 2020-06-23 7:14 AM jumpstart - 2020-06-23 6:55 AM That’s why I said you were permanently confused..You want confirmation of perfect harmony in ethnic relations in a country. It doesn’t exist. Bit like saying you want evidence everybody is happy in a country. But that doesn’t mean multicultural failure. Thankyou ... "it doesnt exist" ... So why create so much trouble trying to force its existence ... Thankyou for the clear answer Why is this a revelation to you. Various people have said all along that there are problems in relations,it’s not perfect but it’s not a failure. It’s a natural occurrence which is increasing. It can’t be stopped now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicepix Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 Birdbrain - 2020-06-23 8:14 AM jumpstart - 2020-06-23 6:55 AM That’s why I said you were permanently confused..You want confirmation of perfect harmony in ethnic relations in a country. It doesn’t exist. Bit like saying you want evidence everybody is happy in a country. But that doesn’t mean multicultural failure. Thankyou ... "it doesnt exist" ... So why create so much trouble trying to force its existence ... Thankyou for the clear answer That is rather naive. There will never be a 100% agreement on any matter such as this whether it is multiculturalism, politics or whatever. So you can never expect to find confirmation of this perfection, which is what jumpstart said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 StuartO - 2020-06-22 5:01 PM Our BAME prison population is disproportionately high because BAMEs are doing more crime and stopping BAMEs is disproportionate for the same reason. And that’s OK by me. If there is reasonable suspicion why not? Tough on the innocent BAMEs maybe but the more helpful they are (instead of complaining) the sooner crime figures will fall and the level of suspicion will also fall. Common sense is wasted on our resident ISO Coconuts :D ........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdbrain Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 jumpstart - 2020-06-23 7:35 AM Birdbrain - 2020-06-23 7:14 AM jumpstart - 2020-06-23 6:55 AM That’s why I said you were permanently confused..You want confirmation of perfect harmony in ethnic relations in a country. It doesn’t exist. Bit like saying you want evidence everybody is happy in a country. But that doesn’t mean multicultural failure. Thankyou ... "it doesnt exist" ... So why create so much trouble trying to force its existence ... Thankyou for the clear answer Why is this a revelation to you. Various people have said all along that there are problems in relations,it’s not perfect but it’s not a failure. It’s a natural occurrence which is increasing. It can’t be stopped now. Multiculturalism has benefits allegedly , makes us a better society to have it allegedly ... Well given you and your friends have given no examples of the benefits we take from it other than curry and I think someone said pyjamas then I can only conclude it adds to an already problematic world and it has to be classed as a failure or maybe you can show for example an EU country that has made a success of it ??? ... By the way just because it "cant be stopped now" doesnt mean it will ever be a success ... Some Muslim countries have solutions to removing those they dont think add much to their countries Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 StuartO - 2020-06-22 3:27 PM Brian Kirby - 2020-06-22 3:09 PM StuartO - 2020-06-22 11:37 AM I don't think there is any way to post videos on this Forum but I've seen a couple of video clips on Facebook today showing really horrible thuggery and serious domestic violence by black men. I've no idea where they came from but they clearly showing horrible, brutal behaviour by violent black men towards women in public. In one case it looks like a domestic dispute as the man chased a woman out into a public area and beat her about the face and head repeatedly. In the other a black man kicked off suddenly on a Tube platform pushing hard at two people for some reason and then he did the same to a woman who just happened to be standing nearby and had shouted something, probably trying to calm things down. She went flying across the platform into a train, fortunately stationary, and could easily have been badly hurt. I have no idea whether these men were prosecuted or even whether these examples happened in UK but clearly if they did they should have been and our politicians need to express clear support for our police doing so every time if they can, regardless of BAME groups claiming that blacks are being profiled etc. Crime is crime! …………………………. These incidents were committed by black men. In your final paragraph you raise a fear, which you concede is unfounded, that they may not be treated in the same way as white (or other ethnic) men. So why not assume, instead, that they will be treated in the same way and that due process will follow? ………………………….. How on earth did you interpret that as raising a fear and conceding that it unfounded?[/………………... Stuart, as you have asked, the answer to your questions lies in the sentence I have emboldened above. (Snips for brevity) As I read your post, you are highlighting the prospect that two black men, both having committed assaults on women, might not have been prosecuted as they should have been. The implicit suggestion is that this may have been for no other reason than that they were black - presumably to defuse any BME backlash that may have ensued as a consequence. That is the fear to which I refer. You go on to say, as emboldened above, "I have no idea whether these men were prosecuted or even whether these examples happened in UK". I read that statement as conceding that your above fear lacks foundation (i.e. is a mixture of innuendo and conjecture) - and so is unfounded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 Birdbrain - 2020-06-22 4:19 PM Brian Kirby - 2020-06-22 3:38 PM Birdbrain - 2020-06-22 1:57 PM Brian Kirby - 2020-06-22 12:23 PM Birdbrain - 2020-06-22 12:16 PM.......................Well seen as most of us live in the here and now lets look at modern multiculturalism , since the war and seen as we are all good Europeans and fighting to stay part of Europe lets stay in Europe and in the EU and because obviously the EU is so great and many want to stay in it because its so great it should also mean that multiculturalism in those EU countries has been a success ... Which countries in the EU have made a success of multiculturalism since the war ??? Success would be of course folks throughout the country mentioned living together in perfect harmony Are you aware of any country in which "folks throughout the country" .........….live "together in perfect harmony", from any time in recorded history? This sounds awfully like that wonderfully ideal, but unattainable, place, Eutopia. Do you really mean that? Well I don't try and sell multiculturalism as a must have benefit ... If multiculturalism does not bring harmony , the opposite actually what are the benefits of it ??? ... Why do we need to ship in multi-cultures to an already unharmonious place ??? ... Do you have an EU country where multiculturalism has worked ??? Hmmm. Which merely returns us to the first question I asked earlier, which you didn't answer, which was: What is your definition of multiculturalism? (So that we are all talking about the same thing.) You answered my second question, "How are you measuring whether or not it is succeeding? (So that we are all applying a common standard.) by saying "folks throughout the country mentioned living together in perfect harmony", which is not, and never has been, attained in any country - whether ethnically pure or otherwise. You have set a Utopian target that can only be achieved by the Gods - and if ancient literature is any guide, not even by them! So why, if that level of social harmony cannot be attained even in an ethnically pure state, should a multi-ethnic state that cannot achieve that same level of harmony, be judged a failure? This just doesn't make sense. 1 Do what you normally do Brian and Wiki the definition … 2 You and the likes of you try tell the likes of me that multiculturalism benefits us ... Sell me the benefits or cant you ??? ... 3 I note you still havent supplied an EU country name where multiculturalism has worked 1 I already did, back on page two, on 18 June 2020 at 6:47 PM. You didn't read that, did you, or say which is the closest fit to your yardstick? So, you just ask the same question again. In the absence of your preferred definition there can be no discussion, as we wont know what we are discussing, will we? So, time to get off the pot! 2 To use a favourite ploy of yours, you'll have to show me where I said that. There is no likes of me - I am unique! :-D 3 No because you don't/won't/can't get of the fence with your definition of multiculturalism, and your definition of "worked" is to cite a Utopian wonderland. The question is just above. Answer please. Time for you to do some work - instead of asking others to do it all for you! :-D Chop chop! :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted June 23, 2020 Author Share Posted June 23, 2020 Brian Kirby - 2020-06-23 11:08 AM Stuart, as you have asked, the answer to your questions lies in the sentence I have emboldened above. (Snips for brevity) As I read your post, you are highlighting the prospect that two black men, both having committed assaults on women, might not have been prosecuted as they should have been. The implicit suggestion is that this may have been for no other reason than that they were black - presumably to defuse any BME backlash that may have ensued as a consequence. That is the fear to which I refer. You go on to say, as emboldened above, "I have no idea whether these men were prosecuted or even whether these examples happened in UK". I read that statement as conceding that your above fear lacks foundation (i.e. is a mixture of innuendo and conjecture) - and so is unfounded. Yes, I thought you were talking fanciful b*****ks again. My comment was entirely about lack of information about the source, not even about whether it was UK or USA and it could have been either. And likewise I had no information about whether they had been prosecuted, so I said so. There were no police in either clip. This thread is about Bad Black Behaviour and these were salutory, horrid examples in my eyes. My point was that crime is crime and we must stop being apologetic for prosecuting any criminal. Simple as that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdbrain Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 Brian Kirby - 2020-06-23 11:43 AM Birdbrain - 2020-06-22 4:19 PM Brian Kirby - 2020-06-22 3:38 PM Birdbrain - 2020-06-22 1:57 PM Brian Kirby - 2020-06-22 12:23 PM Birdbrain - 2020-06-22 12:16 PM.......................Well seen as most of us live in the here and now lets look at modern multiculturalism , since the war and seen as we are all good Europeans and fighting to stay part of Europe lets stay in Europe and in the EU and because obviously the EU is so great and many want to stay in it because its so great it should also mean that multiculturalism in those EU countries has been a success ... Which countries in the EU have made a success of multiculturalism since the war ??? Success would be of course folks throughout the country mentioned living together in perfect harmony Are you aware of any country in which "folks throughout the country" .........….live "together in perfect harmony", from any time in recorded history? This sounds awfully like that wonderfully ideal, but unattainable, place, Eutopia. Do you really mean that? Well I don't try and sell multiculturalism as a must have benefit ... If multiculturalism does not bring harmony , the opposite actually what are the benefits of it ??? ... Why do we need to ship in multi-cultures to an already unharmonious place ??? ... Do you have an EU country where multiculturalism has worked ??? Hmmm. Which merely returns us to the first question I asked earlier, which you didn't answer, which was: What is your definition of multiculturalism? (So that we are all talking about the same thing.) You answered my second question, "How are you measuring whether or not it is succeeding? (So that we are all applying a common standard.) by saying "folks throughout the country mentioned living together in perfect harmony", which is not, and never has been, attained in any country - whether ethnically pure or otherwise. You have set a Utopian target that can only be achieved by the Gods - and if ancient literature is any guide, not even by them! So why, if that level of social harmony cannot be attained even in an ethnically pure state, should a multi-ethnic state that cannot achieve that same level of harmony, be judged a failure? This just doesn't make sense. 1 Do what you normally do Brian and Wiki the definition … 2 You and the likes of you try tell the likes of me that multiculturalism benefits us ... Sell me the benefits or cant you ??? ... 3 I note you still havent supplied an EU country name where multiculturalism has worked 1 I already did, back on page two, on 18 June 2020 at 6:47 PM. You didn't read that, did you, or say which is the closest fit to your yardstick? So, you just ask the same question again. In the absence of your preferred definition there can be no discussion, as we wont know what we are discussing, will we? So, time to get off the pot! 2 To use a favourite ploy of yours, you'll have to show me where I said that. There is no likes of me - I am unique! :-D 3 No because you don't/won't/can't get of the fence with your definition of multiculturalism, and your definition of "worked" is to cite a Utopian wonderland. The question is just above. Answer please. Time for you to do some work - instead of asking others to do it all for you! :-D Chop chop! :-D I applaud you for your 'whataboutery' in not answering my EU question ... Excellent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumpstart Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 Birdbrain - 2020-06-23 9:24 AM jumpstart - 2020-06-23 7:35 AM Birdbrain - 2020-06-23 7:14 AM jumpstart - 2020-06-23 6:55 AM That’s why I said you were permanently confused..You want confirmation of perfect harmony in ethnic relations in a country. It doesn’t exist. Bit like saying you want evidence everybody is happy in a country. But that doesn’t mean multicultural failure. Thankyou ... "it doesnt exist" ... So why create so much trouble trying to force its existence ... Thankyou for the clear answer Why is this a revelation to you. Various people have said all along that there are problems in relations,it’s not perfect but it’s not a failure. It’s a natural occurrence which is increasing. It can’t be stopped now. Multiculturalism has benefits allegedly , makes us a better society to have it allegedly ... Well given you and your friends have given no examples of the benefits we take from it other than curry and I think someone said pyjamas then I can only conclude it adds to an already problematic world and it has to be classed as a failure or maybe you can show for example an EU country that has made a success of it ??? ... By the way just because it "cant be stopped now" doesnt mean it will ever be a success ... Some Muslim countries have solutions to removing those they dont think add much to their countries Tell you what....why don’t you class it as a failure as your blinkers fit so well...bit like you think Trumps Presidency is a success. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 StuartO - 2020-06-23 11:50 AM Brian Kirby - 2020-06-23 11:08 AM Stuart, as you have asked, the answer to your questions lies in the sentence I have emboldened above. (Snips for brevity) As I read your post, you are highlighting the prospect that two black men, both having committed assaults on women, might not have been prosecuted as they should have been. The implicit suggestion is that this may have been for no other reason than that they were black - presumably to defuse any BME backlash that may have ensued as a consequence. That is the fear to which I refer. You go on to say, as emboldened above, "I have no idea whether these men were prosecuted or even whether these examples happened in UK". I read that statement as conceding that your above fear lacks foundation (i.e. is a mixture of innuendo and conjecture) - and so is unfounded. Yes, I thought you were talking fanciful b*****ks again. My comment was entirely about lack of information about the source, not even about whether it was UK or USA and it could have been either. And likewise I had no information about whether they had been prosecuted, so I said so. There were no police in either clip. This thread is about Bad Black Behaviour and these were salutory, horrid examples in my eyes. My point was that crime is crime and we must stop being apologetic for prosecuting any criminal. Simple as that. With respect Stuart: no! If what you write conjures the impression of something approaching "dog whistle politics" in a reader, as it did to me, it is because that is how it reads to them. If that is not how it was intended to read, it is the fault of the writer, not of the reader. First law of communication: if your message is misunderstood or misinterpreted, it is your fault, not the fault of your reader. It is then time to clarify, not dismiss. There is no point in claiming that your reader is guilty of "fanciful b*****ks", or of deliberately mischaracterising your meaning, when all they have to respond to is what you have written, and what you have written remains clearly visible. I have explained, at some length, how I arrived at the conclusion I drew. It would be more helpful and constructive under those circumstances to do them the courtesy of leading them to where you wanted them to go, rather than to simply retort that they've got it wrong! BTW, your string is entitled "We need to find a solution for Bad Black behaviour". It is not "about Bad Black behaviour" - though that is what it rapidly became, with your acquiescence. If your solution is, as it presently appears to be, more laws, more police, more prisons, and longer sentences, then I think that far from solving our present problem, your solution would exacerbate it - probably to end with race riots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted June 23, 2020 Author Share Posted June 23, 2020 Brian Kirby - 2020-06-23 1:23 PM StuartO - 2020-06-23 11:50 AM Brian Kirby - 2020-06-23 11:08 AM Stuart, as you have asked, the answer to your questions lies in the sentence I have emboldened above. (Snips for brevity) As I read your post, you are highlighting the prospect that two black men, both having committed assaults on women, might not have been prosecuted as they should have been. The implicit suggestion is that this may have been for no other reason than that they were black - presumably to defuse any BME backlash that may have ensued as a consequence. That is the fear to which I refer. You go on to say, as emboldened above, "I have no idea whether these men were prosecuted or even whether these examples happened in UK". I read that statement as conceding that your above fear lacks foundation (i.e. is a mixture of innuendo and conjecture) - and so is unfounded. Yes, I thought you were talking fanciful b*****ks again. My comment was entirely about lack of information about the source, not even about whether it was UK or USA and it could have been either. And likewise I had no information about whether they had been prosecuted, so I said so. There were no police in either clip. This thread is about Bad Black Behaviour and these were salutory, horrid examples in my eyes. My point was that crime is crime and we must stop being apologetic for prosecuting any criminal. Simple as that. With respect Stuart: no! If what you write conjures the impression of something approaching "dog whistle politics" in a reader, as it did to me, it is because that is how it reads to them. If that is not how it was intended to read, it is the fault of the writer, not of the reader. First law of communication: if your message is misunderstood or misinterpreted, it is your fault, not the fault of your reader. It is then time to clarify, not dismiss. There is no point in claiming that your reader is guilty of "fanciful b*****ks", or of deliberately mischaracterising your meaning, when all they have to respond to is what you have written, and what you have written remains clearly visible. I have explained, at some length, how I arrived at the conclusion I drew. It would be more helpful and constructive under those circumstances to do them the courtesy of leading them to where you wanted them to go, rather than to simply retort that they've got it wrong! BTW, your string is entitled "We need to find a solution for Bad Black behaviour". It is not "about Bad Black behaviour" - though that is what it rapidly became, with your acquiescence. If your solution is, as it presently appears to be, more laws, more police, more prisons, and longer sentences, then I think that far from solving our present problem, your solution would exacerbate it - probably to end with race riots. I’ve read and re-read that paragraph many times and I can’t how it can possibly be interpreted as you have taken it. You have had the clarification so I hope that helps. Yes, we disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdbrain Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 jumpstart - 2020-06-23 12:12 PM Birdbrain - 2020-06-23 9:24 AM jumpstart - 2020-06-23 7:35 AM Birdbrain - 2020-06-23 7:14 AM jumpstart - 2020-06-23 6:55 AM That’s why I said you were permanently confused..You want confirmation of perfect harmony in ethnic relations in a country. It doesn’t exist. Bit like saying you want evidence everybody is happy in a country. But that doesn’t mean multicultural failure. Thankyou ... "it doesnt exist" ... So why create so much trouble trying to force its existence ... Thankyou for the clear answer Why is this a revelation to you. Various people have said all along that there are problems in relations,it’s not perfect but it’s not a failure. It’s a natural occurrence which is increasing. It can’t be stopped now. Multiculturalism has benefits allegedly , makes us a better society to have it allegedly ... Well given you and your friends have given no examples of the benefits we take from it other than curry and I think someone said pyjamas then I can only conclude it adds to an already problematic world and it has to be classed as a failure or maybe you can show for example an EU country that has made a success of it ??? ... By the way just because it "cant be stopped now" doesnt mean it will ever be a success ... Some Muslim countries have solutions to removing those they dont think add much to their countries Tell you what....why don’t you class it as a failure as your blinkers fit so well...bit like you think Trumps Presidency is a success. I take it you cant debate multiculturalism failures then ??? ... Tell you what lets play a game , you post up a plus to Britains multicultured society and I will post a negative and lets see who can post more ... Off you pop Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumpstart Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 Birdbrain - 2020-06-23 5:51 PM jumpstart - 2020-06-23 12:12 PM Birdbrain - 2020-06-23 9:24 AM jumpstart - 2020-06-23 7:35 AM Birdbrain - 2020-06-23 7:14 AM jumpstart - 2020-06-23 6:55 AM That’s why I said you were permanently confused..You want confirmation of perfect harmony in ethnic relations in a country. It doesn’t exist. Bit like saying you want evidence everybody is happy in a country. But that doesn’t mean multicultural failure. Thankyou ... "it doesnt exist" ... So why create so much trouble trying to force its existence ... Thankyou for the clear answer Why is this a revelation to you. Various people have said all along that there are problems in relations,it’s not perfect but it’s not a failure. It’s a natural occurrence which is increasing. It can’t be stopped now. Multiculturalism has benefits allegedly , makes us a better society to have it allegedly ... Well given you and your friends have given no examples of the benefits we take from it other than curry and I think someone said pyjamas then I can only conclude it adds to an already problematic world and it has to be classed as a failure or maybe you can show for example an EU country that has made a success of it ??? ... By the way just because it "cant be stopped now" doesnt mean it will ever be a success ... Some Muslim countries have solutions to removing those they dont think add much to their countries Tell you what....why don’t you class it as a failure as your blinkers fit so well...bit like you think Trumps Presidency is a success. I take it you cant debate multiculturalism failures then ??? ... Tell you what lets play a game , you post up a plus to Britains multicultured society and I will post a negative and lets see who can post more ... Off you pop We keep giving you the answer,you ignore them,ask the same question again. You’ve got Trump syndrome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdbrain Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 jumpstart - 2020-06-23 6:22 PM Birdbrain - 2020-06-23 5:51 PM jumpstart - 2020-06-23 12:12 PM Birdbrain - 2020-06-23 9:24 AM jumpstart - 2020-06-23 7:35 AM Birdbrain - 2020-06-23 7:14 AM jumpstart - 2020-06-23 6:55 AM That’s why I said you were permanently confused..You want confirmation of perfect harmony in ethnic relations in a country. It doesn’t exist. Bit like saying you want evidence everybody is happy in a country. But that doesn’t mean multicultural failure. Thankyou ... "it doesnt exist" ... So why create so much trouble trying to force its existence ... Thankyou for the clear answer Why is this a revelation to you. Various people have said all along that there are problems in relations,it’s not perfect but it’s not a failure. It’s a natural occurrence which is increasing. It can’t be stopped now. Multiculturalism has benefits allegedly , makes us a better society to have it allegedly ... Well given you and your friends have given no examples of the benefits we take from it other than curry and I think someone said pyjamas then I can only conclude it adds to an already problematic world and it has to be classed as a failure or maybe you can show for example an EU country that has made a success of it ??? ... By the way just because it "cant be stopped now" doesnt mean it will ever be a success ... Some Muslim countries have solutions to removing those they dont think add much to their countries Tell you what....why don’t you class it as a failure as your blinkers fit so well...bit like you think Trumps Presidency is a success. I take it you cant debate multiculturalism failures then ??? ... Tell you what lets play a game , you post up a plus to Britains multicultured society and I will post a negative and lets see who can post more ... Off you pop We keep giving you the answer,you ignore them,ask the same question again. You’ve got Trump syndrome. Must have missed the responses , sorry ... Which EU countries have made a success of multiculturalism then , what was the answer given ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 Birdbrain - 2020-06-23 11:55 AM Brian Kirby - 2020-06-23 11:43 AM Birdbrain - 2020-06-22 4:19 PM Brian Kirby - 2020-06-22 3:38 PM Birdbrain - 2020-06-22 1:57 PM Brian Kirby - 2020-06-22 12:23 PM Birdbrain - 2020-06-22 12:16 PM.......................Well seen as most of us live in the here and now lets look at modern multiculturalism , since the war and seen as we are all good Europeans and fighting to stay part of Europe lets stay in Europe and in the EU and because obviously the EU is so great and many want to stay in it because its so great it should also mean that multiculturalism in those EU countries has been a success ... Which countries in the EU have made a success of multiculturalism since the war ??? Success would be of course folks throughout the country mentioned living together in perfect harmony Are you aware of any country in which "folks throughout the country" .........….live "together in perfect harmony", from any time in recorded history? This sounds awfully like that wonderfully ideal, but unattainable, place, Eutopia. Do you really mean that? Well I don't try and sell multiculturalism as a must have benefit ... If multiculturalism does not bring harmony , the opposite actually what are the benefits of it ??? ... Why do we need to ship in multi-cultures to an already unharmonious place ??? ... Do you have an EU country where multiculturalism has worked ??? Hmmm. Which merely returns us to the first question I asked earlier, which you didn't answer, which was: What is your definition of multiculturalism? (So that we are all talking about the same thing.) You answered my second question, "How are you measuring whether or not it is succeeding? (So that we are all applying a common standard.) by saying "folks throughout the country mentioned living together in perfect harmony", which is not, and never has been, attained in any country - whether ethnically pure or otherwise. You have set a Utopian target that can only be achieved by the Gods - and if ancient literature is any guide, not even by them! So why, if that level of social harmony cannot be attained even in an ethnically pure state, should a multi-ethnic state that cannot achieve that same level of harmony, be judged a failure? This just doesn't make sense. 1 Do what you normally do Brian and Wiki the definition … 2 You and the likes of you try tell the likes of me that multiculturalism benefits us ... Sell me the benefits or cant you ??? ... 3 I note you still havent supplied an EU country name where multiculturalism has worked 1 I already did, back on page two, on 18 June 2020 at 6:47 PM. You didn't read that, did you, or say which is the closest fit to your yardstick? So, you just ask the same question again. In the absence of your preferred definition there can be no discussion, as we wont know what we are discussing, will we? So, time to get off the pot! 2 To use a favourite ploy of yours, you'll have to show me where I said that. There is no likes of me - I am unique! :-D 3 No because you don't/won't/can't get of the fence with your definition of multiculturalism, and your definition of "worked" is to cite a Utopian wonderland. The question is just above. Answer please. Time for you to do some work - instead of asking others to do it all for you! :-D Chop chop! :-D I applaud you for your 'whataboutery' in not answering my EU question ... Excellent Nuts! You're just too frightened to nail your colours to the mast and facilitate an informed discussion. You know you've lost before you start. :-) Utopia doesn't exist. There, start from that premise. So under those circumstances, where we have no definition, the only possible answer to your question is that it has worked in all of them, in different ways, as dictated by the ethnic mixes they have absorbed which, of course, vary from one country to the next. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted June 24, 2020 Author Share Posted June 24, 2020 An aspect of Bad Black Behaviour we need to resolve is over-sensitivity to symbols or slights which are perceived as offensive when there is no intent. For example in the past 24 hours a story has broken about a NASCAR driver in the US who is up in arms about a noose which was found hanging in the garage he was allocated at a racetrack. It turn out that the noose was a pull for closing the door and it had been there for at least the past six months, long before the garage was allocated to him. He's the only African-American NASCAR driver and he didn't take it well; he's made it a topic of public outrage. A noose , in his mind, is an offensive reminder of slavery. presumably in his mind, no one should be allowed to display any sort of noose anywhere where it might offend an AfricanAmerican person. I think this is an example of over-sensitivity. The door pull was installed before his time and was not intended for him in particular, it was presumably somebody's idea of decorative good taste - although in many people's eyes of course, skulls and daggers and nooses are not good taste at all. So shoudn't he be told to shut up and stop being so touchy? Is he aggravating the present situation of BLM demonstrations etc unnecessarily by making a fuss about this? Is it possible that he is doing this opportunistically, to generate personal publicity? To be fair to the driver I now understand it was one of his support team who complained and triggered an FBI investigation into whether there had been a hate crime, which they decided there hadn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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