Guest pelmetman Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 Bulletguy - 2020-06-21 7:58 PM StuartO - 2020-06-21 6:59 PM Brian Kirby - 2020-06-21 6:51 PM pelmetman - 2020-06-21 11:37 AM StuartO - 2020-06-21 9:19 AM I agree that we need to impose more credible prison sentences and that they should be served in full - but how do we also prevent or solve consequential extra problems? I reckon the prospect of no probation and another 5 years automatically added to your sentence would soon curb the career criminals urge to commit crimes :-| ........ I also suspect the cost of keeping prisoners in prison is a damn sight cheaper than the revolving door justice system we currently have *-) ....... Being a hang em flog em Tory....... I have long thought the "R" would should stand for retribution rather than rehabilitation ;-) ......... The evidence isn't with you, though, Dave. Just think how many ways of punishing miscreants have been tried over the centuries, from indefinite incarceration in chains to hanging, drawing and quartering with the prisoner being cut down from the scaffold before death and then eviscerated alive and quartered. Did any stop crime? We've burned alive, drowned on the ducking stool, boiled, publicly hanged and left the bodies on the noose as a warning, crushed, flogged, blinded, amputated limbs, put on the rack, branded, cut out tongues, transported, castrated, thrown from high places, staked out in deserts, sewn cockroaches under their eyelids, crucified, put in stocks, and pilloried (and probably a few more I haven't heard about) - and still crimes have continued to be committed. And after all that, you still think deterrence works? The USA has the highest prison population per 100,000 of population in the world, at 655. It still has crime. By comparison the UK has 140, Spain 124, France 105 and Germany 77. All still have crime. And don't start blaming immigrants because, as a percentage of total population, the USA is 14.13% immigrant, the UK 12.79%, Spain 12.57%, France 11.61% and Germany 14.44%. Statistically, the majority of those in prison come from the poorer segments of the population, mainly low skilled and unskilled manual workers, mainly male. Go figure. Brian, we gave up lots of ways of punishing people not because they didn't work as deterents but for other reasons. We may need to think again - for example about capital punishment. Our MPs voted against it but public opinion was in favour and probably would be again. Corporal punishment also had a salutary effectiveness - remember birching in the Isle of Mann was still used when I was young and no one ever wanted to undergo it again. Quick, cheap and very effective. The problem with restoring capital punishment is the case has to be 100% cast iron faultless and no human being can guarantee that, even with the scientific advances of DNA. Who wants the responsibility of putting an innocent person to death? Ask the 'hang 'em flog 'em set if they're prepared to sacrifice their life if it turns out to be the wrong one and they'd be the first to scarper. As for corporal punishment, i'm all for that in schools but you won't find many that are. Discipline starts early and should begin at home but for a variety of reasons some parents can't cope. The chances of a miscarrige of justice nowadays is miniscule compared to back in the 60's :-| ....... How many people have been murdered since then by murderers who have been released *-) ......... Prolly getting on for a 100 or more I would suspect, seeing as 35 people were killed by convicted killers in the just 10 years between 2001 and 2011 alone 8-) ........ https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-16638227 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 pelmetman - 2020-06-21 8:29 PM Bulletguy - 2020-06-21 7:58 PM StuartO - 2020-06-21 6:59 PM Brian Kirby - 2020-06-21 6:51 PM pelmetman - 2020-06-21 11:37 AM StuartO - 2020-06-21 9:19 AM I agree that we need to impose more credible prison sentences and that they should be served in full - but how do we also prevent or solve consequential extra problems? I reckon the prospect of no probation and another 5 years automatically added to your sentence would soon curb the career criminals urge to commit crimes :-| ........ I also suspect the cost of keeping prisoners in prison is a damn sight cheaper than the revolving door justice system we currently have *-) ....... Being a hang em flog em Tory....... I have long thought the "R" would should stand for retribution rather than rehabilitation ;-) ......... The evidence isn't with you, though, Dave. Just think how many ways of punishing miscreants have been tried over the centuries, from indefinite incarceration in chains to hanging, drawing and quartering with the prisoner being cut down from the scaffold before death and then eviscerated alive and quartered. Did any stop crime? We've burned alive, drowned on the ducking stool, boiled, publicly hanged and left the bodies on the noose as a warning, crushed, flogged, blinded, amputated limbs, put on the rack, branded, cut out tongues, transported, castrated, thrown from high places, staked out in deserts, sewn cockroaches under their eyelids, crucified, put in stocks, and pilloried (and probably a few more I haven't heard about) - and still crimes have continued to be committed. And after all that, you still think deterrence works? The USA has the highest prison population per 100,000 of population in the world, at 655. It still has crime. By comparison the UK has 140, Spain 124, France 105 and Germany 77. All still have crime. And don't start blaming immigrants because, as a percentage of total population, the USA is 14.13% immigrant, the UK 12.79%, Spain 12.57%, France 11.61% and Germany 14.44%. Statistically, the majority of those in prison come from the poorer segments of the population, mainly low skilled and unskilled manual workers, mainly male. Go figure. Brian, we gave up lots of ways of punishing people not because they didn't work as deterents but for other reasons. We may need to think again - for example about capital punishment. Our MPs voted against it but public opinion was in favour and probably would be again. Corporal punishment also had a salutary effectiveness - remember birching in the Isle of Mann was still used when I was young and no one ever wanted to undergo it again. Quick, cheap and very effective. The problem with restoring capital punishment is the case has to be 100% cast iron faultless and no human being can guarantee that, even with the scientific advances of DNA. Who wants the responsibility of putting an innocent person to death? Ask the 'hang 'em flog 'em set if they're prepared to sacrifice their life if it turns out to be the wrong one and they'd be the first to scarper. As for corporal punishment, i'm all for that in schools but you won't find many that are. Discipline starts early and should begin at home but for a variety of reasons some parents can't cope. The chances of a miscarrige of justice nowadays is miniscule compared to back in the 60's :-| ....... Not true.....it''s still happening and these are just UK cases. US has an atrocious record of wrongful convictions. Stefan Kiszko served 16 years after being wrongly convicted of the 1975 murder of the schoolgirl Lesley Molseed in West Yorkshire. Freed on appeal in 1992. Later, Ronald Castree's DNA was jailed for life for the murder in 2007. Stephen Downing was jailed for 27 years for beating to death the typist Wendy Sewell in Bakewell. His conviction was quashed in 2002 after a campaign by the then editor of the Matlock Mercury, Don Hale, who said Downing had been interviewed without legal representation and his signed confession had been written by a police officer. Barry George endured two trials for the murder of the TV presenter Jill Dando and was eventually acquitted of the charge in August, eight years after he was jailed. Plenty more here; https://innocent.org.uk/miscarriage-of-justice-cases/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicepix Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 Miscarriage of justice works two ways and in both cases there is too much margin for error. The public aren't being protected against those who should rightfully be locked up and there are too many wrongful convictions. You only have to look at the Post Office scandal to see that. https://www.parliament.uk/business/news/2020/june/sub-postmasters-urgent-question/ 550 Post Masters and Mistresses wrongly convicted,many jailed and around 400 more lost their livelihoods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 Bulletguy - 2020-06-21 9:07 PM pelmetman - 2020-06-21 8:29 PM Bulletguy - 2020-06-21 7:58 PM StuartO - 2020-06-21 6:59 PM Brian Kirby - 2020-06-21 6:51 PM pelmetman - 2020-06-21 11:37 AM StuartO - 2020-06-21 9:19 AM I agree that we need to impose more credible prison sentences and that they should be served in full - but how do we also prevent or solve consequential extra problems? I reckon the prospect of no probation and another 5 years automatically added to your sentence would soon curb the career criminals urge to commit crimes :-| ........ I also suspect the cost of keeping prisoners in prison is a damn sight cheaper than the revolving door justice system we currently have *-) ....... Being a hang em flog em Tory....... I have long thought the "R" would should stand for retribution rather than rehabilitation ;-) ......... The evidence isn't with you, though, Dave. Just think how many ways of punishing miscreants have been tried over the centuries, from indefinite incarceration in chains to hanging, drawing and quartering with the prisoner being cut down from the scaffold before death and then eviscerated alive and quartered. Did any stop crime? We've burned alive, drowned on the ducking stool, boiled, publicly hanged and left the bodies on the noose as a warning, crushed, flogged, blinded, amputated limbs, put on the rack, branded, cut out tongues, transported, castrated, thrown from high places, staked out in deserts, sewn cockroaches under their eyelids, crucified, put in stocks, and pilloried (and probably a few more I haven't heard about) - and still crimes have continued to be committed. And after all that, you still think deterrence works? The USA has the highest prison population per 100,000 of population in the world, at 655. It still has crime. By comparison the UK has 140, Spain 124, France 105 and Germany 77. All still have crime. And don't start blaming immigrants because, as a percentage of total population, the USA is 14.13% immigrant, the UK 12.79%, Spain 12.57%, France 11.61% and Germany 14.44%. Statistically, the majority of those in prison come from the poorer segments of the population, mainly low skilled and unskilled manual workers, mainly male. Go figure. Brian, we gave up lots of ways of punishing people not because they didn't work as deterents but for other reasons. We may need to think again - for example about capital punishment. Our MPs voted against it but public opinion was in favour and probably would be again. Corporal punishment also had a salutary effectiveness - remember birching in the Isle of Mann was still used when I was young and no one ever wanted to undergo it again. Quick, cheap and very effective. The problem with restoring capital punishment is the case has to be 100% cast iron faultless and no human being can guarantee that, even with the scientific advances of DNA. Who wants the responsibility of putting an innocent person to death? Ask the 'hang 'em flog 'em set if they're prepared to sacrifice their life if it turns out to be the wrong one and they'd be the first to scarper. As for corporal punishment, i'm all for that in schools but you won't find many that are. Discipline starts early and should begin at home but for a variety of reasons some parents can't cope. The chances of a miscarrige of justice nowadays is miniscule compared to back in the 60's :-| ....... Not true.....it''s still happening and these are just UK cases. US has an atrocious record of wrongful convictions. Stefan Kiszko served 16 years after being wrongly convicted of the 1975 murder of the schoolgirl Lesley Molseed in West Yorkshire. Freed on appeal in 1992. Later, Ronald Castree's DNA was jailed for life for the murder in 2007. Stephen Downing was jailed for 27 years for beating to death the typist Wendy Sewell in Bakewell. His conviction was quashed in 2002 after a campaign by the then editor of the Matlock Mercury, Don Hale, who said Downing had been interviewed without legal representation and his signed confession had been written by a police officer. Barry George endured two trials for the murder of the TV presenter Jill Dando and was eventually acquitted of the charge in August, eight years after he was jailed. Plenty more here; https://innocent.org.uk/miscarriage-of-justice-cases/ This is 2020 ;-) ........ DNA has moved on since the 70's *-) .......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rael Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 Bulletguy - 2020-06-21 8:58 PM StuartO - 2020-06-21 6:59 PM Brian Kirby - 2020-06-21 6:51 PM pelmetman - 2020-06-21 11:37 AM StuartO - 2020-06-21 9:19 AM I agree that we need to impose more credible prison sentences and that they should be served in full - but how do we also prevent or solve consequential extra problems? I reckon the prospect of no probation and another 5 years automatically added to your sentence would soon curb the career criminals urge to commit crimes :-| ........ I also suspect the cost of keeping prisoners in prison is a damn sight cheaper than the revolving door justice system we currently have *-) ....... Being a hang em flog em Tory....... I have long thought the "R" would should stand for retribution rather than rehabilitation ;-) ......... The evidence isn't with you, though, Dave. Just think how many ways of punishing miscreants have been tried over the centuries, from indefinite incarceration in chains to hanging, drawing and quartering with the prisoner being cut down from the scaffold before death and then eviscerated alive and quartered. Did any stop crime? We've burned alive, drowned on the ducking stool, boiled, publicly hanged and left the bodies on the noose as a warning, crushed, flogged, blinded, amputated limbs, put on the rack, branded, cut out tongues, transported, castrated, thrown from high places, staked out in deserts, sewn cockroaches under their eyelids, crucified, put in stocks, and pilloried (and probably a few more I haven't heard about) - and still crimes have continued to be committed. And after all that, you still think deterrence works? The USA has the highest prison population per 100,000 of population in the world, at 655. It still has crime. By comparison the UK has 140, Spain 124, France 105 and Germany 77. All still have crime. And don't start blaming immigrants because, as a percentage of total population, the USA is 14.13% immigrant, the UK 12.79%, Spain 12.57%, France 11.61% and Germany 14.44%. Statistically, the majority of those in prison come from the poorer segments of the population, mainly low skilled and unskilled manual workers, mainly male. Go figure. Brian, we gave up lots of ways of punishing people not because they didn't work as deterents but for other reasons. We may need to think again - for example about capital punishment. Our MPs voted against it but public opinion was in favour and probably would be again. Corporal punishment also had a salutary effectiveness - remember birching in the Isle of Mann was still used when I was young and no one ever wanted to undergo it again. Quick, cheap and very effective. The problem with restoring capital punishment is the case has to be 100% cast iron faultless and no human being can guarantee that, even with the scientific advances of DNA. Who wants the responsibility of putting an innocent person to death? Ask the 'hang 'em flog 'em set if they're prepared to sacrifice their life if it turns out to be the wrong one and they'd be the first to scarper. As for corporal punishment, i'm all for that in schools but you won't find many that are. Discipline starts early and should begin at home but for a variety of reasons some parents can't cope. Really, you think that beating kids is ok? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 pelmetman - 2020-06-21 9:51 PM Bulletguy - 2020-06-21 9:07 PM pelmetman - 2020-06-21 8:29 PM Bulletguy - 2020-06-21 7:58 PM StuartO - 2020-06-21 6:59 PM Brian Kirby - 2020-06-21 6:51 PM pelmetman - 2020-06-21 11:37 AM StuartO - 2020-06-21 9:19 AM I agree that we need to impose more credible prison sentences and that they should be served in full - but how do we also prevent or solve consequential extra problems? I reckon the prospect of no probation and another 5 years automatically added to your sentence would soon curb the career criminals urge to commit crimes :-| ........ I also suspect the cost of keeping prisoners in prison is a damn sight cheaper than the revolving door justice system we currently have *-) ....... Being a hang em flog em Tory....... I have long thought the "R" would should stand for retribution rather than rehabilitation ;-) ......... The evidence isn't with you, though, Dave. Just think how many ways of punishing miscreants have been tried over the centuries, from indefinite incarceration in chains to hanging, drawing and quartering with the prisoner being cut down from the scaffold before death and then eviscerated alive and quartered. Did any stop crime? We've burned alive, drowned on the ducking stool, boiled, publicly hanged and left the bodies on the noose as a warning, crushed, flogged, blinded, amputated limbs, put on the rack, branded, cut out tongues, transported, castrated, thrown from high places, staked out in deserts, sewn cockroaches under their eyelids, crucified, put in stocks, and pilloried (and probably a few more I haven't heard about) - and still crimes have continued to be committed. And after all that, you still think deterrence works? The USA has the highest prison population per 100,000 of population in the world, at 655. It still has crime. By comparison the UK has 140, Spain 124, France 105 and Germany 77. All still have crime. And don't start blaming immigrants because, as a percentage of total population, the USA is 14.13% immigrant, the UK 12.79%, Spain 12.57%, France 11.61% and Germany 14.44%. Statistically, the majority of those in prison come from the poorer segments of the population, mainly low skilled and unskilled manual workers, mainly male. Go figure. Brian, we gave up lots of ways of punishing people not because they didn't work as deterents but for other reasons. We may need to think again - for example about capital punishment. Our MPs voted against it but public opinion was in favour and probably would be again. Corporal punishment also had a salutary effectiveness - remember birching in the Isle of Mann was still used when I was young and no one ever wanted to undergo it again. Quick, cheap and very effective. The problem with restoring capital punishment is the case has to be 100% cast iron faultless and no human being can guarantee that, even with the scientific advances of DNA. Who wants the responsibility of putting an innocent person to death? Ask the 'hang 'em flog 'em set if they're prepared to sacrifice their life if it turns out to be the wrong one and they'd be the first to scarper. As for corporal punishment, i'm all for that in schools but you won't find many that are. Discipline starts early and should begin at home but for a variety of reasons some parents can't cope. The chances of a miscarrige of justice nowadays is miniscule compared to back in the 60's :-| ....... Not true.....it''s still happening and these are just UK cases. US has an atrocious record of wrongful convictions. Stefan Kiszko served 16 years after being wrongly convicted of the 1975 murder of the schoolgirl Lesley Molseed in West Yorkshire. Freed on appeal in 1992. Later, Ronald Castree's DNA was jailed for life for the murder in 2007. Stephen Downing was jailed for 27 years for beating to death the typist Wendy Sewell in Bakewell. His conviction was quashed in 2002 after a campaign by the then editor of the Matlock Mercury, Don Hale, who said Downing had been interviewed without legal representation and his signed confession had been written by a police officer. Barry George endured two trials for the murder of the TV presenter Jill Dando and was eventually acquitted of the charge in August, eight years after he was jailed. Plenty more here; https://innocent.org.uk/miscarriage-of-justice-cases/ This is 2020 ;-) ........ DNA has moved on since the 70's *-) .......... Doesn't matter. Miscarriages of justice can still happen and i know if capital punishment was ever restored, you wouldn't offer your life up for the taking if a 'mistake' was made because you'd be among the first to scarper! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 rael - 2020-06-21 10:23 PM Bulletguy - 2020-06-21 8:58 PM StuartO - 2020-06-21 6:59 PM Brian Kirby - 2020-06-21 6:51 PM pelmetman - 2020-06-21 11:37 AM StuartO - 2020-06-21 9:19 AM I agree that we need to impose more credible prison sentences and that they should be served in full - but how do we also prevent or solve consequential extra problems? I reckon the prospect of no probation and another 5 years automatically added to your sentence would soon curb the career criminals urge to commit crimes :-| ........ I also suspect the cost of keeping prisoners in prison is a damn sight cheaper than the revolving door justice system we currently have *-) ....... Being a hang em flog em Tory....... I have long thought the "R" would should stand for retribution rather than rehabilitation ;-) ......... The evidence isn't with you, though, Dave. Just think how many ways of punishing miscreants have been tried over the centuries, from indefinite incarceration in chains to hanging, drawing and quartering with the prisoner being cut down from the scaffold before death and then eviscerated alive and quartered. Did any stop crime? We've burned alive, drowned on the ducking stool, boiled, publicly hanged and left the bodies on the noose as a warning, crushed, flogged, blinded, amputated limbs, put on the rack, branded, cut out tongues, transported, castrated, thrown from high places, staked out in deserts, sewn cockroaches under their eyelids, crucified, put in stocks, and pilloried (and probably a few more I haven't heard about) - and still crimes have continued to be committed. And after all that, you still think deterrence works? The USA has the highest prison population per 100,000 of population in the world, at 655. It still has crime. By comparison the UK has 140, Spain 124, France 105 and Germany 77. All still have crime. And don't start blaming immigrants because, as a percentage of total population, the USA is 14.13% immigrant, the UK 12.79%, Spain 12.57%, France 11.61% and Germany 14.44%. Statistically, the majority of those in prison come from the poorer segments of the population, mainly low skilled and unskilled manual workers, mainly male. Go figure. Brian, we gave up lots of ways of punishing people not because they didn't work as deterents but for other reasons. We may need to think again - for example about capital punishment. Our MPs voted against it but public opinion was in favour and probably would be again. Corporal punishment also had a salutary effectiveness - remember birching in the Isle of Mann was still used when I was young and no one ever wanted to undergo it again. Quick, cheap and very effective. The problem with restoring capital punishment is the case has to be 100% cast iron faultless and no human being can guarantee that, even with the scientific advances of DNA. Who wants the responsibility of putting an innocent person to death? Ask the 'hang 'em flog 'em set if they're prepared to sacrifice their life if it turns out to be the wrong one and they'd be the first to scarper. As for corporal punishment, i'm all for that in schools but you won't find many that are. Discipline starts early and should begin at home but for a variety of reasons some parents can't cope. Really, you think that beating kids is ok? No not beating. A spank or slap which is a big difference imo. Here is an example i can relate to from personal experience. It happened many many years ago....i was around 8 or 9 at the time! I was outside kicking a ball around with two of my mates when my Dad got the car out to visit a friend. Every time my Dad was off out in our car i'd beg to go with him as i knew he'd leave me in the car and that's when i'd get chance to pretend i was driving. Having watched my Dad i knew exactly which gear did what, where the clutch was and so on. Of course he never left the key in! Anyway he took me and the two mates i'd been playing with, parked up, and went off to see his friend. Us three lads got out and had a wander around. There was a huge advertising hoarding and we were throwing pebbles at it. My mates suddenly ran off when they saw what was coming....but i hadn't. Suddenly i felt this large hand grab my shoulder that turned me around to find myself facing a copper. He looked like a bloody giant and i was quaking in fear as he gave me a right ticking off plus a clip around the ear.....yes i know, he'd be sacked for that today BUT......this is what happened after. I begged my mates not to tell my Dad (they didn't!) and i never mentioned it to my parents until i was in my mid teens by which time they could see the funny side to it. It stayed with me for life and as a result i never got in trouble with the police....ever. It also taught me to respect them, which i still do, just as i respected my teachers at school as i was taught to respect my elders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archiesgrandad Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 The only part of him that the policeman could see was his back, what would you expect the policeman to do, run past him and turn to face him so that he could yet again repeat his instruction to stop, so that the felon with the tazer could reconsider his position and come quietly. If any of you have ever been faced with a desperate criminal who is set on making sure that you don't stop him making his escape or doing something illegal that he had set his mind on, you might be understand that talking in reasonable, measured tones and explaining the error of his ways is most unlikely be successful, and strict adherence to Queensbury rules is not much more likely to succeed either. My personal experience is that if you hit him as hard as you can, as quickly as you can, get him onto the floor facedown and sit on him, he is much more likely to get the message, and it will probably reduce the likelyhood of him having another go at you. The people of the USA have consistently indicated that they want, or at least are prepared to allow their police officers to carry guns and use them when appropriate, so felons in the USA know the risk they take when they decide to take on a police officer. It is not our way, but it is theirs, they should not be judged by our standards, but by theirs. If the policeman has done wrong the USA has laws to deal with such a situation, the answer is not to be found in rioting and looting or encouraging people to break even more laws. AGD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted June 22, 2020 Author Share Posted June 22, 2020 Bulletguy - 2020-06-21 7:58 PM The problem with restoring capital punishment is the case has to be 100% cast iron faultless and no human being can guarantee that, even with the scientific advances of DNA. .... Who says it has to be 100%, you? The test in criminal matters is "beyond reasonable doubt", not 100% certainty. Clearly juries are going to want to be more certain if they think the accused is going to be executed but 100% certainty is, and always was, unachievable. I would prefer that we could afford to do without the death penalty, if we had effective alternatives - eg the alternative was to lock convicted murderers up for life and mean life, but if needs must, I think I would vote for re-introducing capital punishment. And corporal punishment too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted June 22, 2020 Share Posted June 22, 2020 I assume that those who support capital punishment, but accept the possibility of mistakes ( however small that possibility is ) will still support it even if a member of their own family is hanged by mistake ? (?) :-| Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted June 22, 2020 Share Posted June 22, 2020 malc d - 2020-06-22 8:49 AM I assume that those who support capital punishment, but accept the possibility of mistakes ( however small that possibility is ) will still support it even if a member of their own family is hanged by mistake ? (?) :-| Seeing as my family are law abiding folk I cant imagine that ever happening ;-) .......... Given the odds I suspect they're at much greater risk of being killed by a released murderer *-) ........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted June 22, 2020 Author Share Posted June 22, 2020 malc d - 2020-06-22 8:49 AM I assume that those who support capital punishment, but accept the possibility of mistakes ( however small that possibility is ) will still support it even if a member of their own family is hanged by mistake ? (?) :-| Isn't that just another way of saying that nothing less than 100% certainty is acceptable to you personally? And does any family accept any sort of guilty verdict against one of their own these days? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted June 22, 2020 Author Share Posted June 22, 2020 Archiesgrandad - 2020-06-21 11:38 PM The only part of him that the policeman could see was his back, what would you expect the policeman to do, run past him and turn to face him so that he could yet again repeat his instruction to stop, so that the felon with the tazer could reconsider his position and come quietly. If any of you have ever been faced with a desperate criminal who is set on making sure that you don't stop him making his escape or doing something illegal that he had set his mind on, you might be understand that talking in reasonable, measured tones and explaining the error of his ways is most unlikely be successful,.... Of course you cannot expect police officers to try gentle persuasion when they are dealing with an escaped suspect who has already been violent towards them. But using lethal force to stop someone escaping is forbidden, even in the USA, and so it should be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted June 22, 2020 Author Share Posted June 22, 2020 It's important to remind ourselves that not all BAME people are one-sided about racial issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted June 22, 2020 Author Share Posted June 22, 2020 And this is an example of the Bad Black Behaviour we need to deal with promptly and unapologetically. These five false IDS were left on a London bus and are likely to have been used to make multiple false benefits claims. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted June 22, 2020 Author Share Posted June 22, 2020 I don't think there is any way to post videos on this Forum but I've seen a couple of video clips on Facebook today showing really horrible thuggery and serious domestic violence by black men. I've no idea where they came from but they clearly showing horrible, brutal behaviour by violent black men towards women in public. In one case it looks like a domestic dispute as the man chased a woman out into a public area and beat her about the face and head repeatedly. In the other a black man kicked off suddenly on a Tube platform pushing hard at two people for some reason and then he did the same to a woman who just happened to be standing nearby and had shouted something, probably trying to calm things down. She went flying across the platform into a train, fortunately stationary, and could easily have been badly hurt. I have no idea whether these men were prosecuted or even whether these examples happened in UK but clearly if they did they should have been and our politicians need to express clear support for our police doing so every time if they can, regardless of BAME groups claiming that blacks are being profiled etc. Crime is crime! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted June 22, 2020 Author Share Posted June 22, 2020 Bulletguy - 2020-06-21 9:07 PM ..... Barry George endured two trials for the murder of the TV presenter Jill Dando and was eventually acquitted of the charge in August, eight years after he was jailed. Plenty more here; https://innocent.org.uk/miscarriage-of-justice-cases/ His conviction was probably found unsafe but even if someone is acquitted, it only means that they haven't been found guilty on the basis of proof beyond reasonable doubt. It doesn't mean they have been found innocent. There might have been plenty of evidence that he was guilty on the balance of probability, just not enough to meet the higher standard. Some people are wrongly prosecuted and some might have been genuinely innocent, but by no means is it safe to assume that all were. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted June 22, 2020 Share Posted June 22, 2020 pelmetman - 2020-06-21 7:14 PM Brian Kirby - 2020-06-21 7:06 PM Birdbrain - 2020-06-18 9:29 AM...……………...Which countries have made a success of multiculturalism ??? ... What benefits has multiculturalism brought to Britain that we wouldnt have had without it ??? Why do those who generally champion multiculturalism live in areas unaffected by it ??? Several of us have offered answers, and you've rejected them all. So, either you are demanding an unrealistically high pass-mark, or we are at cross-purposes over the meaning of multiculturalism. In other words, comparing apples with oranges. So, help us out a bit Antony. What is your definition of multiculturalism? (So that we are all talking about the same thing.) How are you measuring whether or not it is succeeding? (So that we are all applying a common standard.) Lets start with Mono cultures? ;-) ......... Are you happy that they have established and are spreading in our towns and cities? :-| ........ It would be more help first to get clarity on what Antony means by multiculturalism. Then, perhaps you could describe what you mean by "monoculture". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdbrain Posted June 22, 2020 Share Posted June 22, 2020 Brian Kirby - 2020-06-22 12:07 PM pelmetman - 2020-06-21 7:14 PM Brian Kirby - 2020-06-21 7:06 PM Birdbrain - 2020-06-18 9:29 AM...……………...Which countries have made a success of multiculturalism ??? ... What benefits has multiculturalism brought to Britain that we wouldnt have had without it ??? Why do those who generally champion multiculturalism live in areas unaffected by it ??? Several of us have offered answers, and you've rejected them all. So, either you are demanding an unrealistically high pass-mark, or we are at cross-purposes over the meaning of multiculturalism. In other words, comparing apples with oranges. So, help us out a bit Antony. What is your definition of multiculturalism? (So that we are all talking about the same thing.) How are you measuring whether or not it is succeeding? (So that we are all applying a common standard.) Lets start with Mono cultures? ;-) ......... Are you happy that they have established and are spreading in our towns and cities? :-| ........ It would be more help first to get clarity on what Antony means by multiculturalism. Then, perhaps you could describe what you mean by "monoculture". Well seen as most of us live in the here and now lets look at modern multiculturalism , since the war and seen as we are all good Europeans and fighting to stay part of Europe lets stay in Europe and in the EU and because obviously the EU is so great and many want to stay in it because its so great it should also mean that multiculturalism in those EU countries has been a success ... Which countries in the EU have made a success of multiculturalism since the war ??? Success would be of course folks throughout the country mentioned living together in perfect harmony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted June 22, 2020 Share Posted June 22, 2020 Birdbrain - 2020-06-21 8:04 PM StuartO - 2020-06-21 6:53 PM Birdbrain - 2020-06-21 10:22 AM Stuart I havent said I want to ethnically cleanse anywhere , I dont ignore the disgusting treatment of Christians at the hands of Muslims in many parts of the world and I would never suggest ethnic cleansing ... I aren't the person to ask what is to be done here in the UK , I didn't invite in large numbers of folk who do not want to integrate or have anything to do with the British way of life ... I'll leave the solutions to others and good luck to them because unless you know the areas of Bradford affected by the failure of multiculturalism you cant possibly grasp the size of the problem ... Bradford will become basically a Muslim only area around the city centre , much of it already is as the whites move further away and that picture is replicated in many of our towns and cities ... Now my starting point would be to ask those white folk why they are moving out and not to just dismiss their concerns as raciiiiist I knew you we're thinking of extreme solutions and I mentioned then only to illustrate what lay ahead if there was to be any thought of expelling all the non-white people from UK; it's just not an option. Showing why it's not an option should however help us all to realise that we canot turn the clock back, so we need to develop a way of making multicultural existance work for everyone. That doesn't mean we have to "surrender" to non whites in any way, but it does mean we all (including all UK non-whites) need to be stakeholders and to accept responsibility for working towards a solution - including people like you. No one can opt out and just keep moaning. What exactly Stuart is my "extreme solution" ??? Fair question. Stuart has a similar tendency to you, and "front loads" his questions. :-) So, why not forget the "extreme" bit, and outline what your "unextreme" solution would look like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted June 22, 2020 Share Posted June 22, 2020 Birdbrain - 2020-06-22 12:16 PM.......................Well seen as most of us live in the here and now lets look at modern multiculturalism , since the war and seen as we are all good Europeans and fighting to stay part of Europe lets stay in Europe and in the EU and because obviously the EU is so great and many want to stay in it because its so great it should also mean that multiculturalism in those EU countries has been a success ... Which countries in the EU have made a success of multiculturalism since the war ??? Success would be of course folks throughout the country mentioned living together in perfect harmony Are you aware of any country in which "folks throughout the country" .........….live "together in perfect harmony", from any time in recorded history? This sounds awfully like that wonderfully ideal, but unattainable, place, Eutopia. Do you really mean that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted June 22, 2020 Author Share Posted June 22, 2020 Brian Kirby - 2020-06-22 12:17 PM Birdbrain - 2020-06-21 8:04 PM StuartO - 2020-06-21 6:53 PM Birdbrain - 2020-06-21 10:22 AM Stuart I havent said I want to ethnically cleanse anywhere , I dont ignore the disgusting treatment of Christians at the hands of Muslims in many parts of the world and I would never suggest ethnic cleansing ... I aren't the person to ask what is to be done here in the UK , I didn't invite in large numbers of folk who do not want to integrate or have anything to do with the British way of life ... I'll leave the solutions to others and good luck to them because unless you know the areas of Bradford affected by the failure of multiculturalism you cant possibly grasp the size of the problem ... Bradford will become basically a Muslim only area around the city centre , much of it already is as the whites move further away and that picture is replicated in many of our towns and cities ... Now my starting point would be to ask those white folk why they are moving out and not to just dismiss their concerns as raciiiiist I knew you we're thinking of extreme solutions and I mentioned then only to illustrate what lay ahead if there was to be any thought of expelling all the non-white people from UK; it's just not an option. Showing why it's not an option should however help us all to realise that we canot turn the clock back, so we need to develop a way of making multicultural existance work for everyone. That doesn't mean we have to "surrender" to non whites in any way, but it does mean we all (including all UK non-whites) need to be stakeholders and to accept responsibility for working towards a solution - including people like you. No one can opt out and just keep moaning. What exactly Stuart is my "extreme solution" ??? Fair question. Stuart has a similar tendency to you, and "front loads" his questions. :-) So, why not forget the "extreme" bit, and outline what your "unextreme" solution would look like. Sorry, a very unfortunate typo. My post should have read "I knew you weren't thinking of extreme solutions and ....". My point was that there are no practical extreme solutions, so we have to find other means - but that doesn't mean we should keep apologising to BAMEs when we have to deal with bad BAME behaviour, especially criminality. And of course there isn't an option to sulk on the sidelines because you think multiculturalism is undesireable; we're stuck with the need to find a way of getting it to work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted June 22, 2020 Share Posted June 22, 2020 Nicepix - 2020-06-21 8:28 PM...……………………….. The answer is blindingly simple. Build more and better prisons and fill them by closing the loopholes on the CJS and streamlining the processes. Once the new prisons become full the new deterrent will have the effect of slowing down the crime rate. This means that the older, less suitable prisons can be closed and sold off as the prison population reduces. This will come at a cost and some of the cost can be met by putting prisoners to work. If they choose not to then they lose priviliges. If they opt for work then priviliges, even wages can be paid to family or banked pending their release. It seems to work in the States and it can work in the UK. The caveat is that the decisions made in the legal system should never be swayed by financial reasons as has been levied against the American sytem. Nor should it compete unfairly with local businesses. You may find this interesting, though it is not fully conclusive because different countries count in different ways. table 2 seems to offer the greatest clarity: https://tinyurl.com/y86gybd9 What it seems to show is that the USA is not significantly more successful than other countries, with broadly similar rates of recidivism being experienced under most systems. What this suggests to me is that your observation above, that "There are some people who cannot ever be trusted to live in a society without risk to the public" should be our guide, and that those who do not/will not respond heed to be identified and singled out for special treatment, whether that be as in a "Clockwork Orange", or by a system of sentencing that prolongs the sentence each time the recidivist reappears in court. One thing that should be borne in mind when making comparisons with the USA, is that compared to the UK, the USA imprisons 4.7 times more people per 100,000 of population (655) than the UK (140), so any advantage the US system might offer comes at a vary high price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted June 22, 2020 Share Posted June 22, 2020 StuartO - 2020-06-22 9:46 AM malc d - 2020-06-22 8:49 AM I assume that those who support capital punishment, but accept the possibility of mistakes ( however small that possibility is ) will still support it even if a member of their own family is hanged by mistake ? (?) :-| Isn't that just another way of saying that nothing less than 100% certainty is acceptable to you personally? And does any family accept any sort of guilty verdict against one of their own these days? 1) Yes. I am opposed to capital punishment ONLY because we might hang the wrong person. Which would be murder. I can't think of anything worse that the state could do to anyone. 2) I don't know why you say " these days " - I should think that very few families have ever accepted any sort verdict of guilty against any of their own.- even though most are no doubt guilty. They are not the people I am referring to. My concern is for the families of people hanged in error. It may not concern some people but I find it unacceptable. :-| Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumpstart Posted June 22, 2020 Share Posted June 22, 2020 Birdbrain - 2020-06-22 12:16 PM Brian Kirby - 2020-06-22 12:07 PM pelmetman - 2020-06-21 7:14 PM Brian Kirby - 2020-06-21 7:06 PM Birdbrain - 2020-06-18 9:29 AM...……………...Which countries have made a success of multiculturalism ??? ... What benefits has multiculturalism brought to Britain that we wouldnt have had without it ??? Why do those who generally champion multiculturalism live in areas unaffected by it ??? Several of us have offered answers, and you've rejected them all. So, either you are demanding an unrealistically high pass-mark, or we are at cross-purposes over the meaning of multiculturalism. In other words, comparing apples with oranges. So, help us out a bit Antony. What is your definition of multiculturalism? (So that we are all talking about the same thing.) How are you measuring whether or not it is succeeding? (So that we are all applying a common standard.) Lets start with Mono cultures? ;-) ......... Are you happy that they have established and are spreading in our towns and cities? :-| ........ It would be more help first to get clarity on what Antony means by multiculturalism. Then, perhaps you could describe what you mean by "monoculture". Well seen as most of us live in the here and now lets look at modern multiculturalism , since the war and seen as we are all good Europeans and fighting to stay part of Europe lets stay in Europe and in the EU and because obviously the EU is so great and many want to stay in it because its so great it should also mean that multiculturalism in those EU countries has been a success ... Which countries in the EU have made a success of multiculturalism since the war ??? Success would be of course folks throughout the country mentioned living together in perfect harmony What an idiotic statement.. Perfect harmony in anything is not obtainable. Doesn’t mean that it’s a failure though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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