We also need a solution for Bad Black Behaviour

[jumpstart]

Here’s a suggestion for harmony.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/may/07/britain-palestine-independent-state

 

Britain should recognise Palestinians home land.

[malc d]

pelmetman - 2020-06-22 9:14 AM

 

malc d - 2020-06-22 8:49 AM

 

I assume that those who support capital punishment, but accept the possibility of mistakes ( however small that possibility is ) will still support it even if a member of their own family is hanged by mistake ?

 

(?) :-|

 

Seeing as my family are law abiding folk I cant imagine that ever happening ;-) ..........

 

 

 

I'm not surprised that you can't imagine it - just try a bit harder to imagine it - and tell us if you would accept the hanging as just a bit of bad luck.

 

:-|

[Brian Kirby]

Nicepix - 2020-06-21 9:23 PM

Miscarriage of justice works two ways and in both cases there is too much margin for error. The public aren't being protected against those who should rightfully be locked up and there are too many wrongful convictions. You only have to look at the Post Office scandal to see that.

https://www.parliament.uk/business/news/2020/june/sub-postmasters-urgent-question/

550 Post Masters and Mistresses wrongly convicted,many jailed and around 400 more lost their livelihoods.

Yes, but it's very difficult to see how that could be eliminated. The system is imperfect, and relies heavily on argument intended to convince a jury. There are many variations on that theme, but I'm not aware that any system is significantly more "accurate" than any other in elimination miscarriages. I assume that is why we have systems of appeal and review.

 

What struck me about the PO cases was that the PO, however one chooses to dress it up, kept vital evidence from the courts because they knew that their computer system wasn't as foolproof as they wished it to appear, and preferred instead to hang out the little people. It looks to me like a corporate conspiracy (if such exists!), and I've no idea how the miscarriage can be righted as it requires much more than merely compensating those wrongly convicted. Some of the PO employees, plus possibly board members, should now face prosecution.

[Birdbrain]

Brian Kirby - 2020-06-22 12:23 PM

 

Birdbrain - 2020-06-22 12:16 PM.......................Well seen as most of us live in the here and now lets look at modern multiculturalism , since the war and seen as we are all good Europeans and fighting to stay part of Europe lets stay in Europe and in the EU and because obviously the EU is so great and many want to stay in it because its so great it should also mean that multiculturalism in those EU countries has been a success ... Which countries in the EU have made a success of multiculturalism since the war ??? Success would be of course folks throughout the country mentioned living together in perfect harmony

Are you aware of any country in which "folks throughout the country" .........….live "together in perfect harmony", from any time in recorded history? This sounds awfully like that wonderfully ideal, but unattainable, place, Eutopia. Do you really mean that?

 

Well I don't try and sell multiculturalism as a must have benefit ... If multiculturalism does not bring harmony , the opposite actually what are the benefits of it ??? ... Why do we need to ship in multi-cultures to an already unharmonious place ??? ... Do you have an EU country where multiculturalism has worked ???

[Birdbrain]

jumpstart - 2020-06-22 12:55 PM

 

Birdbrain - 2020-06-22 12:16 PM

 

Brian Kirby - 2020-06-22 12:07 PM

 

pelmetman - 2020-06-21 7:14 PM

Brian Kirby - 2020-06-21 7:06 PM

Birdbrain - 2020-06-18 9:29 AM...……………...Which countries have made a success of multiculturalism ??? ... What benefits has multiculturalism brought to Britain that we wouldnt have had without it ??? Why do those who generally champion multiculturalism live in areas unaffected by it ???

Several of us have offered answers, and you've rejected them all.

So, either you are demanding an unrealistically high pass-mark, or we are at cross-purposes over the meaning of multiculturalism. In other words, comparing apples with oranges.

So, help us out a bit Antony.

What is your definition of multiculturalism? (So that we are all talking about the same thing.)

How are you measuring whether or not it is succeeding? (So that we are all applying a common standard.)

Lets start with Mono cultures? ;-) .........

Are you happy that they have established and are spreading in our towns and cities? :-| ........

It would be more help first to get clarity on what Antony means by multiculturalism.

Then, perhaps you could describe what you mean by "monoculture".

 

Well seen as most of us live in the here and now lets look at modern multiculturalism , since the war and seen as we are all good Europeans and fighting to stay part of Europe lets stay in Europe and in the EU and because obviously the EU is so great and many want to stay in it because its so great it should also mean that multiculturalism in those EU countries has been a success ... Which countries in the EU have made a success of multiculturalism since the war ??? Success would be of course folks throughout the country mentioned living together in perfect harmony

 

What an idiotic statement.. Perfect harmony in anything is not obtainable. Doesn’t mean that it’s a failure though.

 

Maybe you can tell Bhuddists "Perfect harmony in anything is not obtainable" ... What an idiotic statement

[Brian Kirby]

Archiesgrandad - 2020-06-21 11:38 PM

 

The only part of him that the policeman could see was his back, what would you expect the policeman to do, run past him and turn to face him so that he could yet again repeat his instruction to stop, so that the felon with the tazer could reconsider his position and come quietly. If any of you have ever been faced with a desperate criminal who is set on making sure that you don't stop him making his escape or doing something illegal that he had set his mind on, you might be understand that talking in reasonable, measured tones and explaining the error of his ways is most unlikely be successful, and strict adherence to Queensbury rules is not much more likely to succeed either. My personal experience is that if you hit him as hard as you can, as quickly as you can, get him onto the floor facedown and sit on him, he is much more likely to get the message, and it will probably reduce the likelyhood of him having another go at you.

The people of the USA have consistently indicated that they want, or at least are prepared to allow their police officers to carry guns and use them when appropriate, so felons in the USA know the risk they take when they decide to take on a police officer. It is not our way, but it is theirs, they should not be judged by our standards, but by theirs. If the policeman has done wrong the USA has laws to deal with such a situation, the answer is not to be found in rioting and looting or encouraging people to break even more laws. AGD

Not sure where this is going. But what would expect the policeman to do? You have a situation where the death of one African American has already sparked riots, and pretty much worldwide protests and condemnation.

 

One shot in the air as a warning? Back to the car, get on the radio, and pursue the man in the car while calling for support? If we are to follow your exhortation not to judge by our standards, do we apply that maxim to every other country? Should we just accept whatever barbarity is being wrought in any country - just because it is "their way". With no limits?

 

That police officer has hardly done his fellow officers, his force, or the police in general, any favours by his action, however "right" you may judge them.

[Brian Kirby]

pelmetman - 2020-06-22 9:14 AM

malc d - 2020-06-22 8:49 AM

I assume that those who support capital punishment, but accept the possibility of mistakes ( however small that possibility is ) will still support it even if a member of their own family is hanged by mistake ?

(?) :-|

Seeing as my family are law abiding folk I cant imagine that ever happening ;-) ..........

Given the odds I suspect they're at much greater risk of being killed by a released murderer *-) ........

Never heard of Craig and Bentley?

[Brian Kirby]

StuartO - 2020-06-22 9:46 AM

malc d - 2020-06-22 8:49 AM

I assume that those who support capital punishment, but accept the possibility of mistakes ( however small that possibility is ) will still support it even if a member of their own family is hanged by mistake ? (?) :-|

Isn't that just another way of saying that nothing less than 100% certainty is acceptable to you personally? And does any family accept any sort of guilty verdict against one of their own these days?

Come on Stuart, this is a philosophical issue.

 

Should the state, presiding over a legal system that is unavoidably liable to miscarriages of justice, sanction the killing of people for specified crimes, knowing that, from time to time, they will kill the wrong person? If so, then, can it be shown that capital punishment is, actually, such a deterrent that the ends justify the means?

 

If the wrong person is later found to have been killed, what should the state then say/do? Just say sorry? Say tough, s/he was just in the wrong place at the wrong time?

 

And, whatever remedy is to be adopted, is the publicity that would attach to such a miscarriage likely to reinforce confidence in the legal system.

 

There is a reason why almost every country that aspires to being "civilised" has abandoned capital punishment in favour of long term imprisonment. It allows the occasional miscarriage to be corrected.

[Brian Kirby]

StuartO - 2020-06-22 11:37 AM

 

I don't think there is any way to post videos on this Forum but I've seen a couple of video clips on Facebook today showing really horrible thuggery and serious domestic violence by black men. I've no idea where they came from but they clearly showing horrible, brutal behaviour by violent black men towards women in public. In one case it looks like a domestic dispute as the man chased a woman out into a public area and beat her about the face and head repeatedly. In the other a black man kicked off suddenly on a Tube platform pushing hard at two people for some reason and then he did the same to a woman who just happened to be standing nearby and had shouted something, probably trying to calm things down. She went flying across the platform into a train, fortunately stationary, and could easily have been badly hurt.

 

I have no idea whether these men were prosecuted or even whether these examples happened in UK but clearly if they did they should have been and our politicians need to express clear support for our police doing so every time if they can, regardless of BAME groups claiming that blacks are being profiled etc. Crime is crime!

Could you not post a link to Facebook, so that others can judge for themselves? These incidents were committed by black men. In your final paragraph you raise a fear, which you concede is unfounded, that they may not be treated in the same way as white (or other ethnic) men. So why not assume, instead, that they will be treated in the same way and that due process will follow?

[Bulletguy]

malc d - 2020-06-22 8:49 AM

 

I assume that those who support capital punishment, but accept the possibility of mistakes ( however small that possibility is ) will still support it even if a member of their own family is hanged by mistake ?

 

(?) :-|

Valid question Malc that none of the hang 'em set will ever give a straight answer to! :-|

[StuartO]

Brian Kirby - 2020-06-22 3:09 PM

 

StuartO - 2020-06-22 11:37 AM

 

I don't think there is any way to post videos on this Forum but I've seen a couple of video clips on Facebook today showing really horrible thuggery and serious domestic violence by black men. I've no idea where they came from but they clearly showing horrible, brutal behaviour by violent black men towards women in public. In one case it looks like a domestic dispute as the man chased a woman out into a public area and beat her about the face and head repeatedly. In the other a black man kicked off suddenly on a Tube platform pushing hard at two people for some reason and then he did the same to a woman who just happened to be standing nearby and had shouted something, probably trying to calm things down. She went flying across the platform into a train, fortunately stationary, and could easily have been badly hurt.

 

I have no idea whether these men were prosecuted or even whether these examples happened in UK but clearly if they did they should have been and our politicians need to express clear support for our police doing so every time if they can, regardless of BAME groups claiming that blacks are being profiled etc. Crime is crime!

Could you not post a link to Facebook, so that others can judge for themselves? These incidents were committed by black men. In your final paragraph you raise a fear, which you concede is unfounded, that they may not be treated in the same way as white (or other ethnic) men. So why not assume, instead, that they will be treated in the same way and that due process will follow?

 

I am encouraging our police to stop being over-sensitive to criticism about profiling blacks etc and get stuck in to black crime every time because crime is crime! How on earth did you interpret that as raising a fear and conceding that it unfounded?

 

Outside my Facebook skills to find the video clips again I'm afraid.

[StuartO]

Brian Kirby - 2020-06-22 2:57 PM

 

Come on Stuart, this is a philosophical issue.

 

Should the state, presiding over a legal system that is unavoidably liable to miscarriages of justice, sanction the killing of people for specified crimes, knowing that, from time to time, they will kill the wrong person? If so, then, can it be shown that capital punishment is, actually, such a deterrent that the ends justify the means?

 

If the wrong person is later found to have been killed, what should the state then say/do? Just say sorry? Say tough, s/he was just in the wrong place at the wrong time?

 

And, whatever remedy is to be adopted, is the publicity that would attach to such a miscarriage likely to reinforce confidence in the legal system.

 

There is a reason why almost every country that aspires to being "civilised" has abandoned capital punishment in favour of long term imprisonment. It allows the occasional miscarriage to be corrected.

 

An argument against capital punishment that I have been happy to support all my life. But we have a big problem and needs must. I have never doubted that capital punishment deters effectively; a deathly hush used to develop in a prison as the time of an execution approached. The argument for reintroducing it is one of utility; less deaths overall will occur if we kill the killers. There might be a small number of mistakes but s**t happens and lots of people get killed accidentally. Tough decisions might need to be made; this the sort of thing which might be necessary to save many more lives.

[Brian Kirby]

Birdbrain - 2020-06-22 1:57 PM

Brian Kirby - 2020-06-22 12:23 PM

Birdbrain - 2020-06-22 12:16 PM.......................Well seen as most of us live in the here and now lets look at modern multiculturalism , since the war and seen as we are all good Europeans and fighting to stay part of Europe lets stay in Europe and in the EU and because obviously the EU is so great and many want to stay in it because its so great it should also mean that multiculturalism in those EU countries has been a success ... Which countries in the EU have made a success of multiculturalism since the war ??? Success would be of course folks throughout the country mentioned living together in perfect harmony

Are you aware of any country in which "folks throughout the country" .........….live "together in perfect harmony", from any time in recorded history? This sounds awfully like that wonderfully ideal, but unattainable, place, Eutopia. Do you really mean that?

Well I don't try and sell multiculturalism as a must have benefit ... If multiculturalism does not bring harmony , the opposite actually what are the benefits of it ??? ... Why do we need to ship in multi-cultures to an already unharmonious place ??? ... Do you have an EU country where multiculturalism has worked ???

Hmmm. Which merely returns us to the first question I asked earlier, which you didn't answer, which was:

 

What is your definition of multiculturalism? (So that we are all talking about the same thing.)

 

You answered my second question, "How are you measuring whether or not it is succeeding? (So that we are all applying a common standard.) by saying "folks throughout the country mentioned living together in perfect harmony", which is not, and never has been, attained in any country - whether ethnically pure or otherwise.

 

You have set a Utopian target that can only be achieved by the Gods - and if ancient literature is any guide, not even by them!

 

So why, if that level of social harmony cannot be attained even in an ethnically pure state, should a multi-ethnic state that cannot achieve that same level of harmony, be judged a failure? This just doesn't make sense.

[pepe63xnotuse]

Is "Bad Black Behaviour" any different to "Bad White Behaviour"...?

 

Re; The Youtube video of a black man behaving violently (mentioned up thread by Stuart)

 

How was it come across? (If you just google the likes of - "Violent black men", then that is what you'll find), are we to assume there are no videos of "Violent white men"?...of cause there will be.

So why just mention the video of the "black man" ?

 

Also, what were the motives of the person who posted (re-posted?) the video on to the likes of Youtube?

 

Nasty, violent people, do nasty violent things, irrespective of their skin colour.

 

 

 

[StuartO]

pepe63 - 2020-06-22 3:39 PM

 

Is "Bad Black Behaviour" any different to "Bad White Behaviour"...?

 

Re; The Youtube video of a black man behaving violently (mentioned up thread by Stuart)

 

How was it come across? (If you just google the likes of - "Violent black men", then that is what you'll find), are we to assume there are no videos of "Violent white men"?...of cause there will be.

So why just mention the video of the "black man" ?

 

Also, what were the motives of the person who posted (re-posted?) the video on to the likes of Youtube?

 

Nasty, violent people, do nasty violent things, irrespective of their skin colour.

 

No difference at all, they are crimes and should be treated as crimes, black or white. It doesn't matter whether the police who deal with either are of either colour either. What's important is that the crimes must all be prosecuted. We must stop apologising for trying to solve crime.

 

I just came across them. They were shared or re-posted or whatever by a friend from my motorcycling days who posts such stuff. I would have been just as horrified to see a clip of any man beating or bullying anyone. My point is that we fail to investigate and detect and prosecute too much crime, especially black crime, for fear or being accused of profiling etc. Under-resourcing too of course.

[Bulletguy]

pepe63 - 2020-06-22 3:39 PM

 

Is "Bad Black Behaviour" any different to "Bad White Behaviour"...?

 

Re; The Youtube video of a black man behaving violently (mentioned up thread by Stuart)

 

How was it come across? (If you just google the likes of - "Violent black men", then that is what you'll find), are we to assume there are no videos of "Violent white men"?...of cause there will be.

So why just mention the video of the "black man" ?

 

Also, what were the motives of the person who posted (re-posted?) the video on to the likes of Youtube?

 

Nasty, violent people, do nasty violent things, irrespective of their skin colour.

Exactly. :-|

[Bulletguy]

StuartO - 2020-06-22 3:48 PM

 

pepe63 - 2020-06-22 3:39 PM

 

Is "Bad Black Behaviour" any different to "Bad White Behaviour"...?

 

Re; The Youtube video of a black man behaving violently (mentioned up thread by Stuart)

 

How was it come across? (If you just google the likes of - "Violent black men", then that is what you'll find), are we to assume there are no videos of "Violent white men"?...of cause there will be.

So why just mention the video of the "black man" ?

 

Also, what were the motives of the person who posted (re-posted?) the video on to the likes of Youtube?

 

Nasty, violent people, do nasty violent things, irrespective of their skin colour.

 

No difference at all, they are crimes and should be treated as crimes, black or white. It doesn't matter whether the police who deal with either are of either colour either. What's important is that the crimes must all be prosecuted. We must stop apologising for trying to solve crime.

 

I just came across them. They were shared or re-posted or whatever by a friend from my motorcycling days who posts such stuff. I would have been just as horrified to see a clip of any man beating or bullying anyone. My point is that we fail to investigate and detect and prosecute too much crime, especially black crime, for fear or being accused of profiling etc. Under-resourcing too of course.

Stop and search of black people is disproportionate to that of white though.

 

Between April 2018 and March 2019, there were 4 stop and searches for every 1,000 White people, compared with 38 for every 1,000 Black people

 

https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/crime-justice-and-the-law/policing/stop-and-search/latest

[StuartO]

When I view Facebook I just scroll down, so I see what friends have posted and adverts,nothing else. I don't search for issue stuff. I've always assumed that even I did post a link to a friend's post, it wouldn't work except for other friends of his. Isn't that right?

[StuartO]

Bulletguy - 2020-06-22 3:57 PM Stop and search of black people is disproportionate to that of white though.

 

Between April 2018 and March 2019, there were 4 stop and searches for every 1,000 White people, compared with 38 for every 1,000 Black people

 

https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/crime-justice-and-the-law/policing/stop-and-search/latest

 

That's a lot less important in my eyes than dealing with the crime. If you park up late at night in a car with darkened front windows and the police can see that someone is inside of course it's suspicious. Black people have the same obligation as all of us to cooperate with police activity. Tough s**t if they get stopped more often because there's disproportionately more crime amongst blacks, especially in some areas.

[Bulletguy]

StuartO - 2020-06-22 3:59 PM

 

When I view Facebook I just scroll down, so I see what friends have posted and adverts,nothing else. I don't search for issue stuff. I've always assumed that even I did post a link to a friend's post, it wouldn't work except for other friends of his. Isn't that right?

Like Google FB works from data harvesting so knows your recent browsing history.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/mar/28/all-the-data-facebook-google-has-on-you-privacy

[Birdbrain]

Brian Kirby - 2020-06-22 3:38 PM

 

Birdbrain - 2020-06-22 1:57 PM

Brian Kirby - 2020-06-22 12:23 PM

Birdbrain - 2020-06-22 12:16 PM.......................Well seen as most of us live in the here and now lets look at modern multiculturalism , since the war and seen as we are all good Europeans and fighting to stay part of Europe lets stay in Europe and in the EU and because obviously the EU is so great and many want to stay in it because its so great it should also mean that multiculturalism in those EU countries has been a success ... Which countries in the EU have made a success of multiculturalism since the war ??? Success would be of course folks throughout the country mentioned living together in perfect harmony

Are you aware of any country in which "folks throughout the country" .........….live "together in perfect harmony", from any time in recorded history? This sounds awfully like that wonderfully ideal, but unattainable, place, Eutopia. Do you really mean that?

Well I don't try and sell multiculturalism as a must have benefit ... If multiculturalism does not bring harmony , the opposite actually what are the benefits of it ??? ... Why do we need to ship in multi-cultures to an already unharmonious place ??? ... Do you have an EU country where multiculturalism has worked ???

Hmmm. Which merely returns us to the first question I asked earlier, which you didn't answer, which was:

 

What is your definition of multiculturalism? (So that we are all talking about the same thing.)

 

You answered my second question, "How are you measuring whether or not it is succeeding? (So that we are all applying a common standard.) by saying "folks throughout the country mentioned living together in perfect harmony", which is not, and never has been, attained in any country - whether ethnically pure or otherwise.

 

You have set a Utopian target that can only be achieved by the Gods - and if ancient literature is any guide, not even by them!

 

So why, if that level of social harmony cannot be attained even in an ethnically pure state, should a multi-ethnic state that cannot achieve that same level of harmony, be judged a failure? This just doesn't make sense.

 

Do what you normally do Brian and Wiki the definition ... You and the likes of you try tell the likes of me that multiculturalism benefits us ... Sell me the benefits or cant you ??? ... I note you still havent supplied an EU country name where multiculturalism has worked

[Bulletguy]

StuartO - 2020-06-22 4:14 PM

 

Bulletguy - 2020-06-22 3:57 PM Stop and search of black people is disproportionate to that of white though.

 

Between April 2018 and March 2019, there were 4 stop and searches for every 1,000 White people, compared with 38 for every 1,000 Black people

 

https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/crime-justice-and-the-law/policing/stop-and-search/latest

 

That's a lot less important in my eyes than dealing with the crime. If you park up late at night in a car with darkened front windows and the police can see that someone is inside of course it's suspicious. Black people have the same obligation as all of us to cooperate with police activity. Tough s**t if they get stopped more often because there's disproportionately more crime amongst blacks, especially in some areas.

There has to be grounds for suspicion on stop and search. I thought i posted a clip on that explaining the exact law? Why is sitting in a car at night suspicious? Some folk now live in vehicles.

[Birdbrain]

Bulletguy - 2020-06-22 3:57 PM

 

StuartO - 2020-06-22 3:48 PM

 

pepe63 - 2020-06-22 3:39 PM

 

Is "Bad Black Behaviour" any different to "Bad White Behaviour"...?

 

Re; The Youtube video of a black man behaving violently (mentioned up thread by Stuart)

 

How was it come across? (If you just google the likes of - "Violent black men", then that is what you'll find), are we to assume there are no videos of "Violent white men"?...of cause there will be.

So why just mention the video of the "black man" ?

 

Also, what were the motives of the person who posted (re-posted?) the video on to the likes of Youtube?

 

Nasty, violent people, do nasty violent things, irrespective of their skin colour.

 

No difference at all, they are crimes and should be treated as crimes, black or white. It doesn't matter whether the police who deal with either are of either colour either. What's important is that the crimes must all be prosecuted. We must stop apologising for trying to solve crime.

 

I just came across them. They were shared or re-posted or whatever by a friend from my motorcycling days who posts such stuff. I would have been just as horrified to see a clip of any man beating or bullying anyone. My point is that we fail to investigate and detect and prosecute too much crime, especially black crime, for fear or being accused of profiling etc. Under-resourcing too of course.

Stop and search of black people is disproportionate to that of white though.

 

Between April 2018 and March 2019, there were 4 stop and searches for every 1,000 White people, compared with 38 for every 1,000 Black people

 

https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/crime-justice-and-the-law/policing/stop-and-search/latest

 

Our BAME prison population is disproportionate to that of whites

[Birdbrain]

Stop and search Police officers Bad ... Innocent youth with knife Good ...

[StuartO]

Our BAME prison population is disproportionately high because BAMEs are doing more crime and stopping BAMEs is disproportionate for the same reason. And that’s OK by me. If there is reasonable suspicion why not? Tough on the innocent BAMEs maybe but the more helpful they are (instead of complaining) the sooner crime figures will fall and the level of suspicion will also fall.