We also need a solution for Bad Black Behaviour

[Birdbrain]

jumpstart - 2020-06-18 6:48 PM

 

Birdbrain - 2020-06-18 6:37 PM

 

Bulletguy - 2020-06-18 6:03 PM

 

StuartO - 2020-06-18 9:11 AM

 

Well we've got this discussion going - and it was a slow sttart as you all hestitated to get involved and to work out how you could respond. And we've had the usual polarised positions reasserted,so that's out of the way. So what about being constructive?

 

Bullet seems thinks we need to concentrate of getting everyone to accept that we're a multicultural society these days and everything will follow from that - which strikes me as fanciful and indeed t simply hasn't happened and probably never will on its own.

That we are a multicultural country is historical fact so cannot be ignored and there are many articles covering it such as this short article; https://greatbritishmag.co.uk/ask-a-brit/is-the-uk-multicultural/

 

For sure some people don't accept we are, including some white British. Quite why i've no idea though much seems to be down to their dislike of skin colour rather than a foreign accent. How will they cope when they find the surgeon about to save their life is black or brown? To me it's the person within that matters more than colour, race or whatever else.

 

Never heard anyone deny we are a multicultural country ... I have heard many deny that we dont live in multicultural harmony though ... Bradford , Leicester , Luton , Oldham etc etc etc maybe tell the story better ... Can anyone tell me the benefits that Britain or any other country has had through multiculturalism and what they have gained because of it ???

 

I would say Canada with in influx of French, American, British, Chinese, Inuit. Benefit is difficult, because generally it’s not planned it’s something that happens.

Some South American countries ar3 quite diverse, maybe even Russia.

 

You might want to read up on Canadas multicultural issues a little and many South American countries aren't diverse nut maybe you can show the ones that have made a success of multiculturalism ??? ... As for Russia , Russia is diverse because of its size , it has nothing to do with multicultural harmony

[Birdbrain]

Bulletguy - 2020-06-18 7:42 PM

 

Birdbrain - 2020-06-18 6:37 PM

 

Bulletguy - 2020-06-18 6:03 PM

 

StuartO - 2020-06-18 9:11 AM

 

Well we've got this discussion going - and it was a slow sttart as you all hestitated to get involved and to work out how you could respond. And we've had the usual polarised positions reasserted,so that's out of the way. So what about being constructive?

 

Bullet seems thinks we need to concentrate of getting everyone to accept that we're a multicultural society these days and everything will follow from that - which strikes me as fanciful and indeed t simply hasn't happened and probably never will on its own.

That we are a multicultural country is historical fact so cannot be ignored and there are many articles covering it such as this short article; https://greatbritishmag.co.uk/ask-a-brit/is-the-uk-multicultural/

 

For sure some people don't accept we are, including some white British. Quite why i've no idea though much seems to be down to their dislike of skin colour rather than a foreign accent. How will they cope when they find the surgeon about to save their life is black or brown? To me it's the person within that matters more than colour, race or whatever else.

 

Never heard anyone deny we are a multicultural country ... I have heard many deny that we dont live in multicultural harmony though ... Bradford , Leicester , Luton , Oldham etc etc etc maybe tell the story better ...

Any that deny we don't live in multicultural harmony are agreeing that we do!

 

Can anyone tell me the benefits that Britain or any other country has had through multiculturalism and what they have gained because of it ???

Asians gave us food and black people, their music.

 

1 ... What ???

2 ... Asians gave us Asian food and spices long before modern day multiculturalism as I am sure you will know ... Black people gave us their music , so did others before them like the great composers and we didn't need multiculturalism for that either ... Try again

[Guest rael]

StuartO - 2020-06-17 7:28 PM

 

It's quite difficult to write anything about what I have called Bad Black Behaviour because there is an obvious risk of being called racist, simply because I'm not saying, as many do say, that black people are never really culpable, because they are all victims; they're just deprived and misunderstood.

 

So I started this thread with considerable trepidation - and indeed one or two have taken the line of accusing me of being racist, despite me knowing there was a real risk of this and being as careful as I could to keep making the balancing qualifier or comparable. It's much easier if you are to be a public commentator to avoid saying anything which can be taken to be in any way racist, which is of course why all our politicians steer clear of anything which cannot be tackled without implying some criticism of at least some blacks. Browns too of course, remembering what happened in Rotherham. And whites too of course, thinking of the stereotypical fat man in a string vest in the wheelie bin sculpture on the site of the Bristol statue which was pulled down.

 

But I happen to think that finding a solution to the widescale bad behaviour in our society )especially that among racially homogeneous groups) is prerequisite to finding a solution to the overall problems or racism. This is the big big unaddressed problem in dealing with racism because it's always being swept under the carpet and yet it is clearly a big issue. Very large numbers of blacks are ending up in jail. It might be less contentious to say that the justice system must be harder on blacks etc but is there any evidence for this? Don't the sentencing guidelines control what the judges dish out these days and won't those, together with our non-elected judges who don't have to play to the crowd be preventing serious unfairness?

 

So, I don't believe I'm in any way racist in suggesting that Black Bad Behaviour needs recognising as one of the big problems and needs addressing properly - by setting aside the politically correct, rose-tinted glasses with which we are currently expected to look at these sort of issues. Why are so many blacks such under-achievers in our society when there are some very high achieving blacks?

 

I want to see a constructive solution to a racial problem - why isn't anyone coming up with constructive ideas? Why are you guys just focusing on which bits of what I have posted can be construed as racist?

 

I think the easiest way to judge if what you have written is regarded as racist is to ask a black friend/person. I don't know how many people on this forum are black but I can hazard a guess that its very few. The majority of us on here have probably never really experienced racism, so I'm not sure if we are qualified to make a judgement, but maybe we are?

[Birdbrain]

rael - 2020-06-18 7:56 PM

 

StuartO - 2020-06-17 7:28 PM

 

It's quite difficult to write anything about what I have called Bad Black Behaviour because there is an obvious risk of being called racist, simply because I'm not saying, as many do say, that black people are never really culpable, because they are all victims; they're just deprived and misunderstood.

 

So I started this thread with considerable trepidation - and indeed one or two have taken the line of accusing me of being racist, despite me knowing there was a real risk of this and being as careful as I could to keep making the balancing qualifier or comparable. It's much easier if you are to be a public commentator to avoid saying anything which can be taken to be in any way racist, which is of course why all our politicians steer clear of anything which cannot be tackled without implying some criticism of at least some blacks. Browns too of course, remembering what happened in Rotherham. And whites too of course, thinking of the stereotypical fat man in a string vest in the wheelie bin sculpture on the site of the Bristol statue which was pulled down.

 

But I happen to think that finding a solution to the widescale bad behaviour in our society )especially that among racially homogeneous groups) is prerequisite to finding a solution to the overall problems or racism. This is the big big unaddressed problem in dealing with racism because it's always being swept under the carpet and yet it is clearly a big issue. Very large numbers of blacks are ending up in jail. It might be less contentious to say that the justice system must be harder on blacks etc but is there any evidence for this? Don't the sentencing guidelines control what the judges dish out these days and won't those, together with our non-elected judges who don't have to play to the crowd be preventing serious unfairness?

 

So, I don't believe I'm in any way racist in suggesting that Black Bad Behaviour needs recognising as one of the big problems and needs addressing properly - by setting aside the politically correct, rose-tinted glasses with which we are currently expected to look at these sort of issues. Why are so many blacks such under-achievers in our society when there are some very high achieving blacks?

 

I want to see a constructive solution to a racial problem - why isn't anyone coming up with constructive ideas? Why are you guys just focusing on which bits of what I have posted can be construed as racist?

 

I think the easiest way to judge if what you have written is regarded as racist is to ask a black friend/person. I don't know how many people on this forum are black but I can hazard a guess that its very few. The majority of us on here have probably never really experienced racism, so I'm not sure if we are qualified to make a judgement, but maybe we are?

 

Not experiencing famine , crime , being poor etc etc doesnt stop judgement or opinion on other matters , why would it on racism ???

[Bulletguy]

Birdbrain - 2020-06-18 7:53 PM

 

Bulletguy - 2020-06-18 7:42 PM

 

Birdbrain - 2020-06-18 6:37 PM

 

Bulletguy - 2020-06-18 6:03 PM

 

StuartO - 2020-06-18 9:11 AM

 

Well we've got this discussion going - and it was a slow sttart as you all hestitated to get involved and to work out how you could respond. And we've had the usual polarised positions reasserted,so that's out of the way. So what about being constructive?

 

Bullet seems thinks we need to concentrate of getting everyone to accept that we're a multicultural society these days and everything will follow from that - which strikes me as fanciful and indeed t simply hasn't happened and probably never will on its own.

That we are a multicultural country is historical fact so cannot be ignored and there are many articles covering it such as this short article; https://greatbritishmag.co.uk/ask-a-brit/is-the-uk-multicultural/

 

For sure some people don't accept we are, including some white British. Quite why i've no idea though much seems to be down to their dislike of skin colour rather than a foreign accent. How will they cope when they find the surgeon about to save their life is black or brown? To me it's the person within that matters more than colour, race or whatever else.

 

Never heard anyone deny we are a multicultural country ... I have heard many deny that we dont live in multicultural harmony though ... Bradford , Leicester , Luton , Oldham etc etc etc maybe tell the story better ...

Any that deny we don't live in multicultural harmony are agreeing that we do!

 

Can anyone tell me the benefits that Britain or any other country has had through multiculturalism and what they have gained because of it ???

Asians gave us food and black people, their music.

 

1 ... What ???

2 ... Asians gave us Asian food and spices long before modern day multiculturalism as I am sure you will know ... Black people gave us their music , so did others before them like the great composers and we didn't need multiculturalism for that either ... Try again

1) To deny would be refusing to admit we DO NOT live in multicultural harmony.

2) And enjoyed it ever since.....even though they cook to suit our taste and not theirs.

3) What "great composers" are you talking about?

[Brian Kirby]

Birdbrain - 2020-06-18 7:47 PM

 

Brian Kirby - 2020-06-18 6:47 PM

 

Birdbrain - 2020-06-18 9:29 AM...…………………………

1) Which countries have made a success of multiculturalism ??? ...

2) What benefits has multiculturalism brought to Britain that we wouldnt have had without it ???

3) Why do those who generally champion multiculturalism live in areas unaffected by it ???

1) Take your pick, depending on the definition of multiculturalism you want to apply! https://tinyurl.com/y8y34kn5 I think Britain has made a fair, though imperfect, job of multiculturalism, as have many other countries. The problems seem to me to arise when migrants seek to import their native culture with them, and are surprised when the native population interpret that as the new guest trying to redecorate the living room to suit themselves.

 

2) Vindaloo and pyjamas! :-D I suppose the greatest gift from multiculturalism is our language, though you may not have wanted to go quite that far back. But in reality, can anything be claimed to be intrinsically British?

 

3) But do they? Our largest city is also our most multicultural, and most people seem just to get on. Much depends on how long ago the migrants arrived, with significant inflows into areas where previously there had been little migration causing the greatest friction.

 

1 ... If you believe Britain is a shining light in the modern world for modern day multiculturalism success after the last few weeks alone me thinks you have issues

2 ... "Vindaloo and pyjamas" are your greatest gift of multiculturalism ???

3 ... Our largest city may well be multicultural but again if you believe most "get on" I think you are in a dream world , they may get on in the affluent areas but dig deeper like in most of our multicultural towns and cities and you have those that stick mainly to their own

1 Wasn't what I said.

2 Wasn't what I said.

3 Isn't an answer to the question you asked.

[Archiesgrandad]

Brian, is it not possible at least part of the reasons that the ethnic minorities have not benefited from our efforts to create a multicultural society is that many of those groups do not want to be part of the society that the indigenous people, who represent the overwhelming majority of the UK residents, want and consistently vote for. I don't mind, or care, if people want to maintain parts of the culture and beliefs of their ancestors, but they must expect to do so within the legal framework of the country that they have chosen to come and live in. The Welsh can do it, the Scots can do it, the Jews can do it, the Hugenauts can do it, and I am sure that the UK has already passed legislation to facilitate this in many, many cases in the past, and I have no doubt we will continue to do so.

I do not believe that there is a single piece of legislation on the statute book that institutionalizes racism in any form, but I accept that there are people who chose act in a racist way, just as there are people who chose to disregard the laws and codes of conduct to which most of us subscribe, and perhaps we should all try to ensure that such actions do not succeed or when they do the law should be applied to the offenders, regardless of their origins.

I doubt that any government of any hue could pass legislation that would stop all individuals and groups acting in a racist way, because the people who do these things do not always bother with the niceties of legality, so before we enter into a new stage of appeasement perhaps we should apply the law as it exists fairly and properly and look for ways to help these communities become better assimilated into our society.

Just a couple of final thoughts, the USA has long struggled with the perception that the forces of law and order are free to do as they will with the Black American community, and today's rioting is in part directed at the government for allowing this, hence the campaign BLM against Trump. These things were just as bad 12 years ago when the President was of African origins, surely a man who would truly understand the problem and who was in the perfect position to do something about it, where were BLM then? The other night, when a Black man was shot by a white policeman after he resisted arrest, stole a lethal weapon from the policeman and fired at him before trying to run off, well, it is reported that on the same night in Chicago 10 Black men were killed by other Black men. When should we expect to see BLM protests in Chicago?, or is it only some Black Lives that Matter.

[Guest rael]

Birdbrain - 2020-06-18 9:08 PM

 

rael - 2020-06-18 7:56 PM

 

StuartO - 2020-06-17 7:28 PM

 

It's quite difficult to write anything about what I have called Bad Black Behaviour because there is an obvious risk of being called racist, simply because I'm not saying, as many do say, that black people are never really culpable, because they are all victims; they're just deprived and misunderstood.

 

So I started this thread with considerable trepidation - and indeed one or two have taken the line of accusing me of being racist, despite me knowing there was a real risk of this and being as careful as I could to keep making the balancing qualifier or comparable. It's much easier if you are to be a public commentator to avoid saying anything which can be taken to be in any way racist, which is of course why all our politicians steer clear of anything which cannot be tackled without implying some criticism of at least some blacks. Browns too of course, remembering what happened in Rotherham. And whites too of course, thinking of the stereotypical fat man in a string vest in the wheelie bin sculpture on the site of the Bristol statue which was pulled down.

 

But I happen to think that finding a solution to the widescale bad behaviour in our society )especially that among racially homogeneous groups) is prerequisite to finding a solution to the overall problems or racism. This is the big big unaddressed problem in dealing with racism because it's always being swept under the carpet and yet it is clearly a big issue. Very large numbers of blacks are ending up in jail. It might be less contentious to say that the justice system must be harder on blacks etc but is there any evidence for this? Don't the sentencing guidelines control what the judges dish out these days and won't those, together with our non-elected judges who don't have to play to the crowd be preventing serious unfairness?

 

So, I don't believe I'm in any way racist in suggesting that Black Bad Behaviour needs recognising as one of the big problems and needs addressing properly - by setting aside the politically correct, rose-tinted glasses with which we are currently expected to look at these sort of issues. Why are so many blacks such under-achievers in our society when there are some very high achieving blacks?

 

I want to see a constructive solution to a racial problem - why isn't anyone coming up with constructive ideas? Why are you guys just focusing on which bits of what I have posted can be construed as racist?

 

I think the easiest way to judge if what you have written is regarded as racist is to ask a black friend/person. I don't know how many people on this forum are black but I can hazard a guess that its very few. The majority of us on here have probably never really experienced racism, so I'm not sure if we are qualified to make a judgement, but maybe we are?

 

Not experiencing famine , crime , being poor etc etc doesnt stop judgement or opinion on other matters , why would it on racism ???

I did not say it did, I asked a question.

[malc d]

Archiesgrandad - 2020-06-18 9:37 PM

 

 

The other night, when a Black man was shot by a white policeman after he resisted arrest, stole a lethal weapon from the policeman and fired at him before trying to run off, well, it is reported that on the same night in Chicago 10 Black men were killed by other Black men.

 

When should we expect to see BLM protests in Chicago?, or is it only some Black Lives that Matter.

 

 

There have already been BLM protests in Chicago.

 

:-|

[Bulletguy]

 

Brian posted this a few days back and i'm wondering if anyone else watched it? It's about Anthony Bryan, a black man who had lived and worked in this country which he'd considered his home for 50 years, never been in trouble with the police, never been in prison, never had as much as a speeding ticket even, yet was removed from his job, denied access to health care, denied welfare benefits, forbidden from working....then in the early hours one day, arrested as "an illegal" and bundled into a van to be driven 200 miles away to be locked up in a detention centre under threat of deportation........twice.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p08g29ff/sitting-in-limbo

 

 

[Birdbrain]

Brian Kirby - 2020-06-18 9:13 PM

 

Birdbrain - 2020-06-18 7:47 PM

 

Brian Kirby - 2020-06-18 6:47 PM

 

Birdbrain - 2020-06-18 9:29 AM...…………………………

1) Which countries have made a success of multiculturalism ??? ...

2) What benefits has multiculturalism brought to Britain that we wouldnt have had without it ???

3) Why do those who generally champion multiculturalism live in areas unaffected by it ???

1) Take your pick, depending on the definition of multiculturalism you want to apply! https://tinyurl.com/y8y34kn5 I think Britain has made a fair, though imperfect, job of multiculturalism, as have many other countries. The problems seem to me to arise when migrants seek to import their native culture with them, and are surprised when the native population interpret that as the new guest trying to redecorate the living room to suit themselves.

 

2) Vindaloo and pyjamas! :-D I suppose the greatest gift from multiculturalism is our language, though you may not have wanted to go quite that far back. But in reality, can anything be claimed to be intrinsically British?

 

3) But do they? Our largest city is also our most multicultural, and most people seem just to get on. Much depends on how long ago the migrants arrived, with significant inflows into areas where previously there had been little migration causing the greatest friction.

 

1 ... If you believe Britain is a shining light in the modern world for modern day multiculturalism success after the last few weeks alone me thinks you have issues

2 ... "Vindaloo and pyjamas" are your greatest gift of multiculturalism ???

3 ... Our largest city may well be multicultural but again if you believe most "get on" I think you are in a dream world , they may get on in the affluent areas but dig deeper like in most of our multicultural towns and cities and you have those that stick mainly to their own

1 Wasn't what I said.

2 Wasn't what I said.

3 Isn't an answer to the question you asked.

 

I take it no countries have have made a success of multiculturalism ??? ... Its a failure then ???

[Birdbrain]

Bulletguy - 2020-06-18 8:35 PM

 

Birdbrain - 2020-06-18 7:53 PM

 

Bulletguy - 2020-06-18 7:42 PM

 

Birdbrain - 2020-06-18 6:37 PM

 

Bulletguy - 2020-06-18 6:03 PM

 

StuartO - 2020-06-18 9:11 AM

 

Well we've got this discussion going - and it was a slow sttart as you all hestitated to get involved and to work out how you could respond. And we've had the usual polarised positions reasserted,so that's out of the way. So what about being constructive?

 

Bullet seems thinks we need to concentrate of getting everyone to accept that we're a multicultural society these days and everything will follow from that - which strikes me as fanciful and indeed t simply hasn't happened and probably never will on its own.

That we are a multicultural country is historical fact so cannot be ignored and there are many articles covering it such as this short article; https://greatbritishmag.co.uk/ask-a-brit/is-the-uk-multicultural/

 

For sure some people don't accept we are, including some white British. Quite why i've no idea though much seems to be down to their dislike of skin colour rather than a foreign accent. How will they cope when they find the surgeon about to save their life is black or brown? To me it's the person within that matters more than colour, race or whatever else.

 

Never heard anyone deny we are a multicultural country ... I have heard many deny that we dont live in multicultural harmony though ... Bradford , Leicester , Luton , Oldham etc etc etc maybe tell the story better ...

Any that deny we don't live in multicultural harmony are agreeing that we do!

 

Can anyone tell me the benefits that Britain or any other country has had through multiculturalism and what they have gained because of it ???

Asians gave us food and black people, their music.

 

1 ... What ???

2 ... Asians gave us Asian food and spices long before modern day multiculturalism as I am sure you will know ... Black people gave us their music , so did others before them like the great composers and we didn't need multiculturalism for that either ... Try again

1) To deny would be refusing to admit we DO NOT live in multicultural harmony.

2) And enjoyed it ever since.....even though they cook to suit our taste and not theirs.

3) What "great composers" are you talking about?

 

2 ... You obviously go to the wrong 'Indian' restaurants ... If you have "enjoyed" what they cook to "suit our taste" then you enjoy plastic curries

3 ... I think you know who the truly great composers are ... The only English one that might sneak into the list would for me be Elgar

[jumpstart]

Birdbrain - 2020-06-19 5:25 AM

 

Brian Kirby - 2020-06-18 9:13 PM

 

Birdbrain - 2020-06-18 7:47 PM

 

Brian Kirby - 2020-06-18 6:47 PM

 

Birdbrain - 2020-06-18 9:29 AM...…………………………

1) Which countries have made a success of multiculturalism ??? ...

2) What benefits has multiculturalism brought to Britain that we wouldnt have had without it ???

3) Why do those who generally champion multiculturalism live in areas unaffected by it ???

1) Take your pick, depending on the definition of multiculturalism you want to apply! https://tinyurl.com/y8y34kn5 I think Britain has made a fair, though imperfect, job of multiculturalism, as have many other countries. The problems seem to me to arise when migrants seek to import their native culture with them, and are surprised when the native population interpret that as the new guest trying to redecorate the living room to suit themselves.

 

2) Vindaloo and pyjamas! :-D I suppose the greatest gift from multiculturalism is our language, though you may not have wanted to go quite that far back. But in reality, can anything be claimed to be intrinsically British?

 

3) But do they? Our largest city is also our most multicultural, and most people seem just to get on. Much depends on how long ago the migrants arrived, with significant inflows into areas where previously there had been little migration causing the greatest friction.

 

1 ... If you believe Britain is a shining light in the modern world for modern day multiculturalism success after the last few weeks alone me thinks you have issues

2 ... "Vindaloo and pyjamas" are your greatest gift of multiculturalism ???

3 ... Our largest city may well be multicultural but again if you believe most "get on" I think you are in a dream world , they may get on in the affluent areas but dig deeper like in most of our multicultural towns and cities and you have those that stick mainly to their own

1 Wasn't what I said.

2 Wasn't what I said.

3 Isn't an answer to the question you asked.

 

I take it no countries have have made a success of multiculturalism ??? ... Its a failure then ???

 

No,you’ve had the answers...you just don’t like them.

[jumpstart]

Archiesgrandad - 2020-06-18 9:37 PM

 

Brian, is it not possible at least part of the reasons that the ethnic minorities have not benefited from our efforts to create a multicultural society is that many of those groups do not want to be part of the society that the indigenous people, who represent the overwhelming majority of the UK residents, want and consistently vote for. I don't mind, or care, if people want to maintain parts of the culture and beliefs of their ancestors, but they must expect to do so within the legal framework of the country that they have chosen to come and live in. The Welsh can do it, the Scots can do it, the Jews can do it, the Hugenauts can do it, and I am sure that the UK has already passed legislation to facilitate this in many, many cases in the past, and I have no doubt we will continue to do so.

I do not believe that there is a single piece of legislation on the statute book that institutionalizes racism in any form, but I accept that there are people who chose act in a racist way, just as there are people who chose to disregard the laws and codes of conduct to which most of us subscribe, and perhaps we should all try to ensure that such actions do not succeed or when they do the law should be applied to the offenders, regardless of their origins.

I doubt that any government of any hue could pass legislation that would stop all individuals and groups acting in a racist way, because the people who do these things do not always bother with the niceties of legality, so before we enter into a new stage of appeasement perhaps we should apply the law as it exists fairly and properly and look for ways to help these communities become better assimilated into our society.

Just a couple of final thoughts, the USA has long struggled with the perception that the forces of law and order are free to do as they will with the Black American community, and today's rioting is in part directed at the government for allowing this, hence the campaign BLM against Trump. These things were just as bad 12 years ago when the President was of African origins, surely a man who would truly understand the problem and who was in the perfect position to do something about it, where were BLM then? The other night, when a Black man was shot by a white policeman after he resisted arrest, stole a lethal weapon from the policeman and fired at him before trying to run off, well, it is reported that on the same night in Chicago 10 Black men were killed by other Black men. When should we expect to see BLM protests in Chicago?, or is it only some Black Lives that Matter.

 

Good post. He actually stole a Taser and fired it. Still in my opinion not a reason to shoot him in the back.

Much of American Police are poorly selected and poorly trained.

[Guest pelmetman]

Violet1956 - 2020-06-18 5:55 PM

 

StuartO - 2020-06-18 5:53 PM

 

Violet1956 - 2020-06-18 5:46 PM Would that you could hold back when facing the temptation to indulge in personal slights Stuart.

 

Tact and diplomacy were never my strong suits but since I retired I no longer have to be in the least concerned about being complained about to the GMC so almost all the inhibition has left me. :-D :-D

 

I can identify with that. Have yet to retire myself and then I plan to really let rip!

 

Ooooh I cant wait :D .........

 

 

[Birdbrain]

jumpstart - 2020-06-19 7:35 AM

 

Birdbrain - 2020-06-19 5:25 AM

 

Brian Kirby - 2020-06-18 9:13 PM

 

Birdbrain - 2020-06-18 7:47 PM

 

Brian Kirby - 2020-06-18 6:47 PM

 

Birdbrain - 2020-06-18 9:29 AM...…………………………

1) Which countries have made a success of multiculturalism ??? ...

2) What benefits has multiculturalism brought to Britain that we wouldnt have had without it ???

3) Why do those who generally champion multiculturalism live in areas unaffected by it ???

1) Take your pick, depending on the definition of multiculturalism you want to apply! https://tinyurl.com/y8y34kn5 I think Britain has made a fair, though imperfect, job of multiculturalism, as have many other countries. The problems seem to me to arise when migrants seek to import their native culture with them, and are surprised when the native population interpret that as the new guest trying to redecorate the living room to suit themselves.

 

2) Vindaloo and pyjamas! :-D I suppose the greatest gift from multiculturalism is our language, though you may not have wanted to go quite that far back. But in reality, can anything be claimed to be intrinsically British?

 

3) But do they? Our largest city is also our most multicultural, and most people seem just to get on. Much depends on how long ago the migrants arrived, with significant inflows into areas where previously there had been little migration causing the greatest friction.

 

1 ... If you believe Britain is a shining light in the modern world for modern day multiculturalism success after the last few weeks alone me thinks you have issues

2 ... "Vindaloo and pyjamas" are your greatest gift of multiculturalism ???

3 ... Our largest city may well be multicultural but again if you believe most "get on" I think you are in a dream world , they may get on in the affluent areas but dig deeper like in most of our multicultural towns and cities and you have those that stick mainly to their own

1 Wasn't what I said.

2 Wasn't what I said.

3 Isn't an answer to the question you asked.

 

I take it no countries have have made a success of multiculturalism ??? ... Its a failure then ???

 

No,you’ve had the answers...you just don’t like them.

 

Its obviously not a grown up discussion then ... You obviously want your view even though its normally misguided to be first and final point ... Not a nice look

[StuartO]

Archiesgrandad - 2020-06-18 9:37 PM

 

Brian, is it not possible at least part of the reasons that the ethnic minorities have not benefited from our efforts to create a multicultural society is that many of those groups do not want to be part of the society that the indigenous people, who represent the overwhelming majority of the UK residents, want and consistently vote for. I don't mind, or care, if people want to maintain parts of the culture and beliefs of their ancestors, but they must expect to do so within the legal framework of the country that they have chosen to come and live in. The Welsh can do it, the Scots can do it, the Jews can do it, the Hugenauts can do it, and I am sure that the UK has already passed legislation to facilitate this in many, many cases in the past, and I have no doubt we will continue to do so.

I do not believe that there is a single piece of legislation on the statute book that institutionalizes racism in any form, but I accept that there are people who chose act in a racist way, just as there are people who chose to disregard the laws and codes of conduct to which most of us subscribe, and perhaps we should all try to ensure that such actions do not succeed or when they do the law should be applied to the offenders, regardless of their origins.

I doubt that any government of any hue could pass legislation that would stop all individuals and groups acting in a racist way, because the people who do these things do not always bother with the niceties of legality, so before we enter into a new stage of appeasement perhaps we should apply the law as it exists fairly and properly and look for ways to help these communities become better assimilated into our society.

Just a couple of final thoughts, the USA has long struggled with the perception that the forces of law and order are free to do as they will with the Black American community, and today's rioting is in part directed at the government for allowing this, hence the campaign BLM against Trump. These things were just as bad 12 years ago when the President was of African origins, surely a man who would truly understand the problem and who was in the perfect position to do something about it, where were BLM then? The other night, when a Black man was shot by a white policeman after he resisted arrest, stole a lethal weapon from the policeman and fired at him before trying to run off, well, it is reported that on the same night in Chicago 10 Black men were killed by other Black men. When should we expect to see BLM protests in Chicago?, or is it only some Black Lives that Matter.

 

Well said, except that the man shot by police while fleeing the other night was carrying the Taser he had stolen, which is a non-lethal weapon, hence the policeman, who has already lost his job, is facing a murder charge - and seemingly quite rightly so.

 

But the point about 10 black-on-black killings in one city on the same night is relevant because it highlights the extent to which blacks in the USA are involved in crime - and of course that leads the police into what is called (by the objectors) profiling when the decide whether to stop someone who looks suspicious in some way. Looking suspicious and being black increases the suspicion.

 

There was another example reported on Radio 4 this morning of a black nurse who was subjected to a "hard stop" by police in London a while back while she was parked up - the police shouted challenges to open the window and later to get out of the car - which she failed to do so they arrested her and dragged her out and she spent a night in custody. She's now claiming that she was picked on because she is black etc. Her car had darkened front windows and I guess they suspected she was sorting or selling drugs - which it turned out she wasn't. As I heard it this is a case of someone failing to cooperate and paying the price (and now telling her story differently) rather than unreasonable profiling by the police - and now she's jumping on the BLM bandwagon, complaining formally and suing the police. And I expect she'll probably get paid off.

[StuartO]

rael - 2020-06-18 7:56 PM I think the easiest way to judge if what you have written is regarded as racist is to ask a black friend/person. I don't know how many people on this forum are black but I can hazard a guess that its very few. The majority of us on here have probably never really experienced racism, so I'm not sure if we are qualified to make a judgement, but maybe we are?

 

I sometimes think the whole Compensation Culture Era started when it became the norm (in the NHS, where I was working at the time) for management to act on the basis that if anyone felt harassed, that was enough to believe they were being harassed, so the person being accused of harassment was to be considered at fault. They wouldn't necessarily suffer any penalty or get sacked but they would be told to improve there interpersonal skills or somesuch and it would be recorded as a mark against them. It was about this time that we started seeing people of colour playing the race card in various ways to fend off any challenge that they were facing and things escalated from there.

 

It might be tempting to suggest that black people should be the ones to decide what is or is not racism but that's tantamount to encouraging them to play the race card anytime they want - and some of them undoubtedly do. We should listen sympathetically when a black person complains of course and we should consider very carefully but justice requires balance of enquiry and consideration of evidence so we should certainly not take every accusation at face value - as the BBC was doing this morning.

[StuartO]

Brian Kirby - 2020-06-18 5:59 PM

 

StuartO - 2020-06-18 2:45 PM

Brian Kirby - 2020-06-18 12:23 PM ....But the point I was trying (albeit badly) to make is that what we have done is make immigrants, but more especially non-white immigrants, feel unwelcome and rejected. Their natural reaction to this has been to coalesce into groups that we sometimes unwisely call ghettos. There is nothing new in this, it is human nature on both sides, and has happened with every large scale migration throughout history.

It even happened between neighbouring villages before the days of the motor car, when "them over there" were a bit odd! "All the world is queer, save thee and me, and even thou art a little queer.” :-D

Over time the barriers broke down and the immigrants largely assimilated into the rest of society to become just a part of "us" (that "us" I was referring to above). Our social norms, sometimes our diet, gradually absorbed the ripples of difference that occurred as they were absorbed.

We know this because none of us can trace our ancestors very far back into history before we find evidence of immigrant forbears. But that process had, until, say, the post WW2 period, been predominantly of northern European origin, and so relatively unnoticeable.

But after WW2 the large scale immigration was coming predominantly from much further afield, from Asia, the Caribbean, and parts of Africa, and the migrants were immediately identifiable by their different skin colour and non-European culture. The combination of immediately identifiable skin colours, and more widely divergent cultures, made these immigrants stand out from the background. So the process of integration was more difficult.

Good "Wiki" here: https://tinyurl.com/yb6zcr9d

These episodes of overt hostility have left their mark, as have the petty every-day racism they continue to encounter. They are a minority who, because of their looks, cannot fade into the background, and who can never be certain how the next white face they encounter will respond to them. It is that lingering unease that we have to dispel, and that requires social change to make the prejudice that causes it unacceptable, and that in turn will only be brought about by peer pressure. Education, persuasion, and psychology, not legislation or penalties, are the tools we must use, first on ourselves.

Then, over time, just as with other migrant groups, as the sense of being unwelcome outsiders subsides, their confidence will grow, they will drop their defensiveness, and they will begin to blend in socially. Then they will truly become, and will feel, part of that "us" I was trying to capture above. But, IMO, that will never happen until we recognise that we are their problem, and not vice versa.

A) What you seem to be saying is immigrants fail to assimilate because they are made to feel unwelcome and so it's the resident white majority which should feel responsible. B) And in the context of this topic you presumaby mean that the white majority bear all the responsibility for everything that's going wrong unless and until the immigrant people of colour feel comfortable enough to want to assimilate.

A) I think there is an element of that, but I was referring to non-white immigrants and not, as you imply, immigrants in general.

 

B) No. What I am saying is that those who have in various ways demonstrated racial prejudice have created a climate of hostility that non-white immigrants experience but have no way of knowing, on first acquaintance, which of the rest of us harbours. How they then respond will depend on their personalities, and what their direct experiences have been. It would be ludicrous to attribute the cause to all white natives when not all are prejudiced, and equally ludicrous to claim that all non-white immigrants who transgress do so because of their experiences of racial prejudice. But some prejudiced whites, and some recalcitrant non-whites?

 

C) Well I'm shocked. I've heard some whacky liberal ideas in my time but that takes the biscuit. D) Are you really saying that immigrants have no obligation at all to make an effort to assimilate or at least get on with the resident population? E) And is all the bad behaviour and crime which is commited by third generation descendents of these immigrants still the host white community's fault too?

C) I'm sorry if that shocks, it seems obvious to me. Let's put it another way, with impeccable provenance: "as ye sow, so shall ye reap".

 

D) No, I am not saying that. I am arguing that the process would be easier for them if we didn't show prejudice against them.

 

E) You keep racing to the extremes! No, not all, but if you put yourself in the shoes of that third generation immigrant kid being picked on at school because of his colour, a degree of resentment seems more probable than a desire to embrace his white counterpart - in case the result is hostility. How is he to know how his approach might be received? So his initial reaction is defensive, which often gives offence - and off we go.

 

F) Don't expatriate Brits living retired in Spain gather together as little communities, with some of them not bothering to learn Spanish at all?

G) Isn't it natural for ethnic and cultural groups to form friendships and stick together, regardless of their origin or colour? H) Don't the Poles in UK stick together socially and buy from Polish Delis, even though they are often and widely praised for being good immigrants, with almost never a word said against them?

F) Sadly, yes. And I imagine that clannishness offends some of the Spanish. If the tables were reversed, it would offend me. Personally, when abroad, I try to speak at least some of the language of the country I'm in. When in Rome...…..? It seems the polite thing to do.

 

G) Yes, it is natural. But the question is whether it assists integration. I admit to a degree of irritation when people who have been in the UK for decades speak bad, and heavily, accented English, and dress as in their countries of origin. It indicates they have spent most of the it time here within their family, or ethnic, group. Why, then, are they here? They left their homeland, yet seem to want to import it with them. Natural, yes, but a mistake, IMO, that mitigates against them being assimilated by their host community. I won't accept you, but you should accept me.

 

H) Yes, but many Brits sniff out the Polish delis as well! They form a rather different group, as many arrived in UK peripheral to WW2, under the Polish Resettlement Act, on the back of a relationship that dates back to the C16. They are white, so don't stand out in the way that non-whites do, they share a similar religious faith, many speak English better than some natives, and many came as wartime refugees, so were grateful to have been taken in. Many came intending to return after the war - and look what happened to that desire!

 

So, they settled, initially in large groupings in our major cities, but have since intermarried and integrated and spread across the UK.

 

In a way, they make my point. They were generally welcomed, and special measures were introduced for their education. Having been welcomed and helped, they reciprocated in kind. Contrast that experience with the No Irish, No dogs, No Blacks that "welcomed" many of the Caribbean migrants in the 50's, and consider whether the (general) integration of the one group might not give some insight into the (general) failure to integrate of the other.

 

And isn't the principle in UK justice that we're all personally responsible for our actions unless proven otherwise?

Yes, but provocation also provides a defence. If you keep provoking someone in the presence of witnesses, and he eventually snaps and smacks you on the nose, you're unlikely to be able to sustain an assault charge against him! :-D

 

I'm not going to respond with a detailed coment on this long analysis, partly because someone else has already done so - and I've quoted it in full only because there's no easy way to summarise it. You are trying to justify laying the blame, seeingly almost all of it, on whites for not being welcoming enough to immigrants. Likewise you are excusing the descendents of immigrants from misbehaviour because they still feel we aren't welcoming enough. I'm afraid this seems to me to be silly nonesense and more of your sanctimonious tripe.

[StuartO]

StuartO - 2020-06-18 10:51 AM

 

Birdbrain - 2020-06-18 9:29 AM Which countries have made a success of multiculturalism ??? ... What benefits has multiculturalism brought to Britain that we wouldnt have had without it ??? Why do those who generally champion multiculturalism live in areas unaffected by it ???

 

I think you can say that most countries have made worthwhile progress is adapting to multiculturalism, although of course there is still some way to go. The USA for example is much better than it was at the end of WW2. Singapore is the obvious example of a country in which all races seem to have a share in the success, although not of course an equally divided share because personal success depends upon achievement and some achieve more than others.

 

There is no avoiding multiculturalism in this modern world and those isolated places where monculturalism still prevails will not stay that way long, the global village will ensure that. There is certainly no civilised way of winding the clock back by two or three generations in UK by sending all the non-whites "back home" if that's what you are yearning for. Nor do I believe there is any practical uncivilised way of getting rid of multiculturalism so you can forget that one too. We are multicultural and we will remain multicultural in one form or another indefinitely, so we should waste no time thinking otherwise. We may well need to manage immigation in order to prevent aggravating the unmanaged multicultural mess we're currently facing the need to sort out but it remains to be seen what the immigration policies need to be once we achieve control and stability of our democracy.

 

If there is genuine equal opportunity in our society (which we are still a long way from achieving and we've taken some imortant backward steps) I think we can hope for a stable and comfortable multicultural democracy in the long term - but there are certainly going to be some bumps in the road. Ethnic groups will still group togather for cultural and other reasons but if they all see that they all have genuine equal oppotunity to be educated and/or trained, there will be no reason for the cross-racial envy and resentment we are seeing today. Religious tolerance in a secular society is another key requirement for mutual tolerance and respect. No group may set itself to dominate others. No group may isolate itself by seeking to establish it's own set of laws or taxes.

 

Wasn't it Tony Blair who said the priority is Education, Education, Education and I think that's right. So we ensure our school are up to scratch and we level upwards to help kids in deprived areas. But we scrap the idea that all kids can gain from going to university, which was Tony Blair's silliest idea. Likewise the encouracement of lots of kids to do a mickey mouse degree at a not-really university and end up with a big debt and nothing that will help them get a a better job. I had a free education all the way up from school at age three to graduation at 23, including maintenance grants. I then had about ten years worth of post-grad specialist training at public expense too. And I worked in the public sector for qite a while and paid taxes for over 40 years to pay it back. Educating and training children and young people to allow them to achieve their personal potential free of charge should be the aim and we should not pretend that this can be done without testing them for aptitude for different sorts of tertiary education or training.

 

But even with universally good schools and extra support for kids from a deprived background there will still be a need for comprehensive social and personal support in order to achieve universal equality of opportunity. Kids can't choose their parents and lots of today's parents are a complete disaster; they live chaotic lives dependent on drugs and they don't even get out of bed in the morning to get their kids to school - and the kids turn up sometimes, sometimes not, sometimes dressed in school uniform but never in clean clothes and many of them don't stand a cat in hell's chance of achieving their genuine potential because they start life with this millstone around their neck. The ones I came across were white kids by the way, not black. So we need to find a better solution than pretending these kids, of any colour or grouping, are better left with their families when we know the families are beyond hope and perhaps even beyond help, even if that help was available which it bloody well isn't. We need a system of care and education which is safe and reliable and which indentifies them promptly enough to prevent irrecoverable harm - and we need to pay for all that to happen. And there will be much more to do - but at least that's a start.

 

So stop making self-righteous judgements about whether other people's attitudes or opinions are racist or racially prejudices, as if that really matters because we are all faling to get all of it right. And stop looking at the past, especially resentfully, whatever colour or other grouping you belong to - and start thinking and acting constructively.

 

Birdbrain, I think you missed this reponse to your challenge about successes in multiculturalism, which was way back on Page One.

[StuartO]

Sorry for this morning rush of posts guys, I tend to knock off at teatime so there's sometimes a bit of catching up to do.

[Brian Kirby]

Birdbrain - 2020-06-19 5:25 AM

Brian Kirby - 2020-06-18 9:13 PM

Birdbrain - 2020-06-18 7:47 PM

Brian Kirby - 2020-06-18 6:47 PM

Birdbrain - 2020-06-18 9:29 AM...…………………………

1) Which countries have made a success of multiculturalism ??? ...

2) What benefits has multiculturalism brought to Britain that we wouldnt have had without it ???

3) Why do those who generally champion multiculturalism live in areas unaffected by it ???

1) Take your pick, depending on the definition of multiculturalism you want to apply! https://tinyurl.com/y8y34kn5 I think Britain has made a fair, though imperfect, job of multiculturalism, as have many other countries. The problems seem to me to arise when migrants seek to import their native culture with them, and are surprised when the native population interpret that as the new guest trying to redecorate the living room to suit themselves.

2) Vindaloo and pyjamas! :-D I suppose the greatest gift from multiculturalism is our language, though you may not have wanted to go quite that far back. But in reality, can anything be claimed to be intrinsically British?

3) But do they? Our largest city is also our most multicultural, and most people seem just to get on. Much depends on how long ago the migrants arrived, with significant inflows into areas where previously there had been little migration causing the greatest friction.

1 ... If you believe Britain is a shining light in the modern world for modern day multiculturalism success after the last few weeks alone me thinks you have issues

2 ... "Vindaloo and pyjamas" are your greatest gift of multiculturalism ???

3 ... Our largest city may well be multicultural but again if you believe most "get on" I think you are in a dream world , they may get on in the affluent areas but dig deeper like in most of our multicultural towns and cities and you have those that stick mainly to their own

1 Wasn't what I said.

2 Wasn't what I said.

3 Isn't an answer to the question you asked.

I take it no countries have have made a success of multiculturalism ??? ... Its a failure then ???

Answer in my first reply above. Read the Wiki and make your own mind up.

[Brian Kirby]

Archiesgrandad - 2020-06-18 9:37 PM

 

1 Brian, is it not possible at least part of the reasons that the ethnic minorities have not benefited from our efforts to create a multicultural society is that many of those groups do not want to be part of the society that the indigenous people, who represent the overwhelming majority of the UK residents, want and consistently vote for.

 

2 I don't mind, or care, if people want to maintain parts of the culture and beliefs of their ancestors, but they must expect to do so within the legal framework of the country that they have chosen to come and live in. The Welsh can do it, the Scots can do it, the Jews can do it, the Hugenauts can do it, and I am sure that the UK has already passed legislation to facilitate this in many, many cases in the past, and I have no doubt we will continue to do so.

1 Yes, that is entirely possible: indeed, I think it is the case, though I am uneasy to join you in referring to "groups". This depends very much who you see as the groups and how they defined. So, I think there are some self selecting groups from all the migrant "communities" who take that view (most notably among some of the Muslim youth, but also some West Indian youth) while other members of the same migrant communities are completely law abiding.

 

2 I agree. The problem is created, in this context, by those who, as 1 above, dissent. If we want to draw them into the law abiding majority, we have to understand their grievances, and then consider to what extent we are prepared to eliminate them.

 

I do not believe that there is a single piece of legislation on the statute book that institutionalizes racism in any form, but I accept that there are people who chose act in a racist way, just as there are people who chose to disregard the laws and codes of conduct to which most of us subscribe, and perhaps we should all try to ensure that such actions do not succeed or when they do the law should be applied to the offenders, regardless of their origins.

Legislation that institutionalises racism. I think the Nationality Acts, as variously modified, come close. Their problem is that by careless wording and alteration they have allowed racist interpretation - which is what lies at the heart of the Windrush row. The racism is not implicit in the Acts, but in the way they were used by the Home Office to create the "Hostile Environment" that involved a number of Caribbean migrants. I don't think this is, fundamentally, an issue that can be solved by legislation. Racism, in all its forms, is illegal. The problem is that too many people flout the law and, when they do, cases are very difficult to bring because so much is one person's word against another's. So a sense if injustice is created, and that sense of injustice then provokes a backlash.

 

I doubt that any government of any hue could pass legislation that would stop all individuals and groups acting in a racist way, because the people who do these things do not always bother with the niceties of legality, so before we enter into a new stage of appeasement perhaps we should apply the law as it exists fairly and properly and look for ways to help these communities become better assimilated into our society.

As above, making the law work is the problem.

 

3 Just a couple of final thoughts, the USA has long struggled with the perception that the forces of law and order are free to do as they will with the Black American community, and today's rioting is in part directed at the government for allowing this, hence the campaign BLM against Trump. These things were just as bad 12 years ago when the President was of African origins, surely a man who would truly understand the problem and who was in the perfect position to do something about it, where were BLM then?

I don't know, but I don't think this is just about who is president - other than Trumps tendency to throw petrol on the fire.

4 The other night, when a Black man was shot by a white policeman after he resisted arrest, stole a lethal weapon from the policeman and fired at him before trying to run off, well, it is reported that on the same night in Chicago 10 Black men were killed by other Black men. When should we expect to see BLM protests in Chicago?, or is it only some Black Lives that Matter.

The weapon he stole was a taser, not designed to be lethal, and it had been discharged during the chase. Tasers are one shot weapons so having been discharged, it was no longer a threat. The man was shot after that, in the back, while running away. Th officer is now facing a charge of murder.

[jumpstart]

If you watch the video ,he turned and fired the Taser and you see it hit one of the following officers in the leg.He was then shot. In the UK he would be alive still.

[StuartO]

Birdbrain, may I suggest that you are struggling to gain support for the idea that multiculturalism is a failure; it's much more a fact of life which has happened whether you like it or not these days, and it's not been entirely a failure in UK, even if we still have big problems which need to be faced properly.

 

I would take issue with one of the points that Brian made: "Our largest city is also our most multicultural, and most people seem just to get on." Because although the mixed bags of races and ethnic groups you encounter on every Tube journey and on Oxford Street don't automatically start fighting, it was the blacks from the London ghettos who gathered to mount the BLM demonstrations and the same in Bristol really. There's been a black district (called St Pauls) there since slavery days and they would have formed the core of the initial demonstrations there. There were plenty of non-black supporters too of course. But Rentamob joined in for the opportunity to bash the bobbies and then the counter-demonstartors turned up so it got more violent. Hopefully it will calm down a bit soon and we can make another attempt to make progress.

 

I don't think multiculturalism is capable of failing and it's more a question of whether it gets better or worse. It has been partially successful in UK and the various groups ordinarily get along day to day, as Brian was trying to point out. It's only when we look at the crime and education statistics and when there's a triggering event such as the death of George Floyd that we see the underlying frustrations and failings confronting us. I don't swallow Brian's idea that we whites ought to feel guilty about the past failings and I certainly don't, especially about slavery - but we are all Brits, including the immigrants once they've been accepted, so we need to pull together to address to continuing issues.

 

We might still be able to stem the flow of illegal migration inwards and throw out the ones who've sneaked in but we need to show acceptance and fairness towards everyone else, especially the ones (like the Ghurkas and the Afghans who were our translators etc) who should be included in the Military Covenant. The Windrush Generation too, to whom UK has long been home. We should not try sneaky tricks to reneague on those sort of obligations - and even the EU citizens who have settled here while we were in the EU, even the bloody French!.

 

There is simply no possibility in democratic UK of any move to 'send them all home' and if that even remotely tempts any of us we should take a cold shower and think again. There are all sorts of problems we still need to face and if we want to continue to be British, all we Brits need to face them in partnership rather than as battling rival tribes. If that doesn't suit any of us, then they are the ones who need to go somewhere else.