Engine battery draining while traveling, technical help please

[onecal]

Ok 

So you should have no problem disconnecting the bypass relay completely and re check also  all you earth grounds should be opened and cleaned and re made 

Regards

[Keithl]

The voltage fluctuating between around 12 Volts to over 14 Volts implies to me that you have a 'Smart' alternator system in which case that is why your MH has been fitted with a DC-DC charger to try and 'force' the leisure battery to charge. I still think you may have some kind of fault such as a bad ground as mentioned by OneCal above.

[Robinhood]

..as above. The age of the vehicle and the fitting of a dc-dc charger means it is most likely that a smart alternator is fitted (and this assumption was behind the suggested rewiring.

In this case a measured voltage (and fluctuation) anywhere between 12v and 15v or even above would not be unusual. In the correct circumstances the electronics vary (minimise) the voltage and load on the alternator/engine to improve efficiency/lower emissions.

We're hoping the rewiring has allowed that logic now to do its job properly. You need to give everything a good chance with varied running to check whether the engine battery is now being sufficiently maintained to ensure proper starting.

I'm currently off to the continent, so haven't got time to confirm the following, but my impression was that owners of vehicles with smart alternators were generally reporting "standing" voltages somewhat lower than the 12.6/12.7v experienced with more conventional alternators, so even a slightly lower voltage might be entirely normal (if you charge above this using the mains charger, the alternator might not kick-in for some time, hence the voltage might validly drop)

[david lloyd]

Think it has been suggested before that by turning on the headlights during a run it can fool the alternator into increasing its charging output - this may give a better, more even indication of whether the modification has worked?

David

[John52]

13 hours ago, Goneoff said:

I’m afraid it’s all a bit inconclusive, we have only driven 4/5 miles to our next site; watching the cigarette socket voltmeter during the drive was a rollercoaster it ranged from lows of 11.9 to highs of 14.3 nothing was stable or consistent but when we arrived at our destination the battery had gone down to 12.3 although I should add a large portion of our short journey was done in long Italian traffic queues. Having said that one would have thought it would be around 12.6 at least but that’s me guessing.
Moving all four wires over from the negative terminal has had no detrimental effect on the cab electrics, no warning lights on the dash, start stop was functioning, only the time needed resetting and as I mentioned earlier the Pioneer head unit fired up requiring no password or code, remembering all it’s settings along with coordinate history. I think any meaningful test will have to be done on a longer run in approximately 6 days time. I don’t know if any of you can draw any sort of conclusion from this short journey, I certainly can’t. 

This is pretty much what I expected - apart from the radio not needing a code to reset it.

You have a 'Smart Alternator' because you have the current sensor (IBS) and that level of voltage fluctuation is normal - I know because mine is the same as yours.

The battery should have finished up above 12.3 volts but it probably did. To measure the resting battery voltage properly there needs to be no load on it,   If you are using the O/E cigar lighter socket you will need to have the ignition on to check it, in which case there will be a substantial drain on the battery bringing down the voltage.  I fitted an extra cigar lighter socket direct to the battery to measure the voltage with the ignition off.

[John52]

12 hours ago, onecal said:

 all you earth grounds should be opened and cleaned and re made 

Do you realise how many there are?

[Goneoff]

Once again thank you all for your input, I think the majority conclusion at this stage is I will not know for sure if the 4 wires I moved has resolved the issue until I travel a reasonable distance which I will be doing in 5 days time as we head towards France. I will report back then and again it will be good to have your valued comments. Thank you. 

Phil

[onecal]

Hi

Again your original post states that you were not able to re start after 2 hrs driving , your alternator was checked and got a clean bill of health etc'? You have moved the battery connected wiring and what looks like have had no problems to your charging system . Is your motorhome now starting without issue ? Don't forget you did have your alternator tested and as you said it passed , maybe and just maybe you may have a parasitic drain hence why I asked you to disconnect your by pass relay completely and to check all your earths for corrosion and good connections. This is very important. So again is your Motorhome now starting up normally? Turn on your headlights to full, then air con if fitted and blower, put your foot on the brake, engage reverse  and check to see if your voltage goes up with each move Just a thought is that the original radio fitted to your motorhome?

Regards 

Edited September 5, 2023 by onecal

[John52]

1 hour ago, onecal said:

check all your earths for corrosion and good connections. This is very important.

I'll try again

Do you realise how many there are?

Could you even list them all so he knows what you are asking him to check?

There may be nothing wrong with it now.

Its fitted with a smart alternator so the voltage may not go up with each move as you claim

The voltage goes up when you take your foot off the accelerator and the momentum drives the engine.

Thats why the voltage is all over the place when driving. - That is normal with a smart alternator

If it gets charged over about 80% with regenerative braking it probably won't charge again until it drops below about 80%

1 hour ago, onecal said:

Turn on your headlights to full, then air con if fitted and blower, put your foot on the brake, engage reverse  and check to see if your voltage goes up with each move

So if it the voltage doesn't go up with each move what does that prove?

Nothing.

I have just tried it on my Ducato, which is the same as his, and it makes no noticeable difference to the voltage.

[onecal]

Since you keep quoting me and only the parts of my post  you want to argue with me about, so keep on trying   ,

So  answering your question 

Of course I do!  lol

Edited September 5, 2023 by onecal

[onecal]

Hi

Again your original post states that you were not able to re start after 2 hrs driving , your alternator was checked and got a clean bill of health etc'? You have moved the battery connected wiring and what looks like have had no problems to your charging system . Is your motorhome now starting without issue ? Don't forget you did have your alternator tested and as you said it passed , maybe and just maybe you may have a parasitic drain hence why I asked you to disconnect your by pass relay completely and to check all your earths for corrosion and good connections. This is very important. So again is your Motorhome now starting up normally? Turn on your headlights to full, then air con if fitted and blower, put your foot on the brake, engage reverse  and check to see if your voltage goes up with each move Just a thought is that the original radio fitted to your motorhome? We await your reply?

Regards 

[John52]

12 hours ago, onecal said:

 

So  answering your question 

Of course I do!  lol

So why don't you tell the OP so he knows what you are asking him to check?

[John52]

12 hours ago, onecal said:

maybe you may have a parasitic drain

He said in his opening post he only stopped for diesel after 2 hours driving

What on earth could drain the battery in the time it takes to stop for diesel?

[onecal]

16 hours ago, onecal said:

Hi

Again your original post states that you were not able to re start after 2 hrs driving , your alternator was checked and got a clean bill of health etc'? You have moved the battery connected wiring and what looks like have had no problems to your charging system . Is your motorhome now starting without issue ? Don't forget you did have your alternator tested and as you said it passed , maybe and just maybe you may have a parasitic drain hence why I asked you to disconnect your by pass relay completely and to check all your earths for corrosion and good connections. This is very important. So again is your Motorhome now starting up normally? Turn on your headlights to full, then air con if fitted and blower, put your foot on the brake, engage reverse  and check to see if your voltage goes up with each move Just a thought is that the original radio fitted to your motorhome? We await your reply?

Regards 

 

[onecal]

Hi Goneoff,

This thread has got so long , i am just wondering what kind of battery did you replace or is fitted as your starter battery. 

Regards 

[Goneoff]

18 hours ago, onecal said:

Hi

Again your original post states that you were not able to re start after 2 hrs driving , your alternator was checked and got a clean bill of health etc'? You have moved the battery connected wiring and what looks like have had no problems to your charging system . Is your motorhome now starting without issue ? Don't forget you did have your alternator tested and as you said it passed , maybe and just maybe you may have a parasitic drain hence why I asked you to disconnect your by pass relay completely and to check all your earths for corrosion and good connections. This is very important. So again is your Motorhome now starting up normally? Turn on your headlights to full, then air con if fitted and blower, put your foot on the brake, engage reverse  and check to see if your voltage goes up with each move Just a thought is that the original radio fitted to your motorhome? We await your reply?

Regards 

 

1 hour ago, onecal said:

Hi Goneoff,

This thread has got so long , i am just wondering what kind of battery did you replace or is fitted as your starter battery. 

Regards 

Hi and thanks for your time 

The Pioneer radio is the original one fitted either by Burstner or Camper U.K. in Lincoln. 

As I have mentioned historically even with a low battery but with enough energy to start there are no sluggish noises from the starter motor or dimming lights on the dash, the engine fires up first time. 

To backtrack a little, after leaving home where the MH was on mains hook-up, we drove the 190 miles to Canterbury with one stop, no starting problem (NSP) the following day drove to Dover (NSP) caught the ferry (NSP). Drove through France for 2 hours stayed on an aire (NSP). Next morning drove to Luxembourg 150 miles stopped for diesel, engine wouldn’t start at the pumps (as per my opening question). Battery was in the red 11.8v but after an hour the engine fired up as normal, drove 12 miles to a campsite with hook-up. 

After three nights we drove to Metz where we had both smart alternator and battery checked out Fiat said both were functioning perfectly. We drove to Metz center stayed overnight, followed morning drove to Germany after circa one hour we stopped, engine battery was showing 11.3v the engine was totally dead but after half an hour it fired up as sharp as ever. We drove to a German camper stop with electricity the engine battery was in the red but I didn’t try to start the engine until we had charged up the following morning. We then drove to Würzburg stayed in a camper stop with no electricity but next day the engine started without any hesitation. We drove a few miles south of Würzburg to a campsite with hook-up and stayed 3 nights. Drove 7+ hours to northern Italy with only one stop to refuel at that stop I took a long time purposely as I knew the battery was in the red, however the engine fired up and we drove to a campsite in northern Italy with hook-up. Next day drove to campsite in Sirmione on lake Garda purposely without a stop. After a week we moved a few miles down the road to a site in Pescheira with hook-up where we are now. That’s the chain of events to date. 

Re earth points: 

Without stripping the van I have looked around in a non professional way at the various points I can see; with the van being marginally under 3 years old every thing looks new, certainly not corroded. I’m sure John is correct when he says there are numerous earth points on the vehicle especially as he has the identical Ducato; are there specific earth points where you can point me to so that I can check them out?

With regards to your question about engine battery; the battery has not been replaced, it is the original that came with the vehicle. A 300ah lithium battery system was installed professionally by Rhino Installs in Preston for the vehicles previous owner. 

I hope all this is of help even though I suspect it could be the best cure for insomnia in the western hemisphere.  

I equally suspect I won’t get a clear result of the wiring change until we get some miles under our belt when we head towards the south of France.

Thanks again 

[MikeF]

Whilst replies have focused on connections to the vehicle battery negative there has been no discussion regarding the control of charging the 300 Ah lithium battery.

Although 'professionally installed ' the charging system  setup may be incorrect or something is not performing correctly.  This situation could be  taking energy from the starter battery even with no engine charging. Perhaps the frequency  use of hook up charging is masking an underlying fault with the battery to battery charging.

Mike

[onecal]

Hi

I agree MikeF , I think way too many changes have been made to a van as the OP says is only less than 3 years old  You may need to get a good diagnostic tech and see what may or may not be connected correctly be it a ground or add on , Lithium cranking battery may not be the best choice here, 

Regards 

Edited September 6, 2023 by onecal

[Goneoff]

12 minutes ago, onecal said:

Hi

I agree MikeF , I think way too many changes have been made to a van as the OP says is only less than 3 years old  You may need to get a good diagnostic tech and see what may or may not be connected correctly be it a ground or add on , Lithium cranking battery may not be the best choice here, 

Regards 

Hi Onecal

Just to clarify the engine/cranking battery is the factory fit AGM battery, I think it’s AGM due to the stop start function. The lithium set up is on the habitation side not fitted to start the engine. 

[onecal]

Hi

That's positive step , now what kind of control charging is fitted to your Lithium habitation battery?

[MikeF]

These comments are interesting,

a) 'simple split charge B2B

b) 'KS energy 300 Ah battery'

There is a recall on some KS  batteries, fire risk, worth  contacting KS  for advice.

Trying to charge a lithium battery from engine charging, without  current control,   may/will damage components in the charge path,  such as  alternator, wiring, connection points. KS make a marketing point that their battery was a 'drop in' direct replacement in a motorhome  application .

 Mike

Edited September 6, 2023 by MikeF

[Goneoff]

2 hours ago, MikeF said:

These comments are interesting,

a) 'simple split charge B2B

b) 'KS energy 300 Ah battery'

There is a recall on some KS  batteries, fire risk, worth  contacting KS  for advice.

Trying to charge a lithium battery from engine charging, without  current control,   may/will damage components in the charge path,  such as  alternator, wiring, connection points. KS make a marketing point that their battery was a 'drop in' direct replacement in a motorhome  application .

 Mike

It is more than unnerving traveling like this but whilst we are over here we will make calculated stops outside of campsites with hook-up prior to heading home. Having said that the wiring change suggested and made may have resolved the problem. 

I only bought the MH a few months ago with all the equipment,Tesa levelling, tow bar, lithium etc all installed prior to my purchase if I had have fitted it, the timeline of fitting may have helped me identify a culprit if any. 

I have decided to book the MH into Vanbitz in Somerset on our way home for them to check out the various installations even if the wiring change resolves the battery issue. I have also arranged with them to fit a Sterling battery to battery charger for the KS lithium. 

One other question in the meantime do you guys think it would be worthwhile buy a jump starter a Noco for instance? 

If the wiring change at the battery makes no difference do I move them back or leave them where they are now? 

Thank you for your patience and response 

[Goneoff]

2 hours ago, MikeF said:

These comments are interesting,

a) 'simple split charge B2B

b) 'KS energy 300 Ah battery'

There is a recall on some KS  batteries, fire risk, worth  contacting KS  for advice.

Trying to charge a lithium battery from engine charging, without  current control,   may/will damage components in the charge path,  such as  alternator, wiring, connection points. KS make a marketing point that their battery was a 'drop in' direct replacement in a motorhome  application .

 Mike

Yes while not being as technically minded as you folks on here just dropping a lithium battery in with out changes doesn’t seem right but I guess KS Energy are more into selling batteries than worrying about the problems that can arise by just dropping a lithium in. 
I did check out the KS recall and it was a specific battery, I would guess a battery management system fault. 
If you haven’t read all ready I have arranged to have a lithium capable Sterling b2b fitted on our way home at Vanbitz. 
 

[colin]

Over the years one of the big problems with these vans has been the engine earth strap, whilst it might look OK they often cause problems. I'm not sure how it would cause the problem you have, but as a matter of cause best to replace it with a quality item.

[John52]

On 06/09/2023 at 13:04, onecal said:

Lithium cranking battery may not be the best choice here, 

Its not a Lithium cranking battery

If you look at the photo of it the OP has posted on page 1 you see its a flooded battery

It says so on it