Vehicle battery condition

[peterjl]

Hi. Went to take Moho out yesterday and it barely turned over and didn’t start , now I am not an engineer and knowledge is not strong so after consulting Google I…..

checked voltage across battery = 11.7

charged at 8amps ( it’s an 8am charger) starting at 1 pm and it showed full charged 9 hrs later

this morning checked voltage = 12.68. ;  took for a 12 mile drive, about 30 minutes given traffic jam, and checked again 12.48.  Two hours later ran lights for a couple of minutes without starting then voltage 12.28. Then started engine and checked whilst engine running = 13.95.: after engine switched off voltage = 12.6

Not sure if all this means battery is ok or I have a problem. Any guidance, thoughts very welcome.

FYI Moho is 2021 Fiat ducato 2.3 ( Possl Roadstar 600 L )

Peter

[Ninian]

Hi,    12.6 / 12.7 is 100% charged.

[Alanb]

1 hour ago, peterjl said:

Hi. Went to take Moho out yesterday and it barely turned over and didn’t start , now I am not an engineer and knowledge is not strong so after consulting Google I…..

checked voltage across battery = 11.7

charged at 8amps ( it’s an 8am charger) starting at 1 pm and it showed full charged 9 hrs later

this morning checked voltage = 12.68. ;  took for a 12 mile drive, about 30 minutes given traffic jam, and checked again 12.48.  Two hours later ran lights for a couple of minutes without starting then voltage 12.28. Then started engine and checked whilst engine running = 13.95.: after engine switched off voltage = 12.6

Not sure if all this means battery is ok or I have a problem. Any guidance, thoughts very welcome.

FYI Moho is 2021 Fiat ducato 2.3 ( possl Roadstar 600 L )

Peter

Hi Peter,

11.80V is generally accepted as a fully discharged battery.

Your charger has a maximum rating of 8A, but the actual charge current will reduce as the battery voltage rises.

I would expect your starter battery to have a capacity of about 95Ah (Ampere hours). Also battery is not 100% efficient and some energy will be released as heat. So to fully charge your battery you would have to charge it for well in excess of 12 hours.

A 30 minute run will replace the energy used when starting, but will not add significant charge to the battery. With a basic alternator, the end voltage could be as high as 14.4V when the engine is still running.  If your vehicle has a smart alternator then voltage could be less, as capacity is left to absorb energy when slowing down.  I do not have any practical experience concerning smart alternators, but   @John52 has a smart alternator and monitors its output.

I note that Ninian has suggested 12.6V / 12.7V represents a charged battery, but that should be after the battery has stood off charge for 24 hours.

Why was your battery flat? If it has stood idle for two or three weeks, that could be the cause. There is usually a small parasitic drain on modern vehicles, add an alarm, and the battery could be flat in the that time.

Alan

[Tracker]

It all depends!

If your battery was sound before it was allowed to go dead flat it may recover OK.

That said it may also do it again without warning? Funny things batteries, don't always do what you expect of them!

How long was it flat for, any idea? How long since it was last started?

At two years old it should have plenty of life in it but that is no guarantee as batteries are notoriously unpredictable and much depends on how well it has been cared for and used

There is a constant discharge on all batteries to maintain things like clock, ecu, locks, alarms etc and it pays to start and run reguarly, especially in the colder spells.

Only way to find out is to use the van and it may be worth carrying a set of jump leads long enough to reach the leisure battery, which makes a very good jump start battery when needed. I always disconnected the leisure battery from habitation circuits before jumping to avoid any risk of power surges damaging anything.

If your van is still under warranty it may be worth talking to the provider - but don't hold out too much hope as they will probably blame the user!

[peterjl]

Thank Alan.

yes, my van had been idle for a month and prior to that had a only a couple of outings of less than 10 minutes.

I usually take it out for a run every three weeks or so but we have had builders, roofers, and tradesmen of all sorts over last couple of months and taking Moho out got lost. Also on my last few moho’s the vehicle battery charged when it was plugged in and I hadn’t realised that wasn’t the case with this one even though I have had it for over two years. Very frustrating.

I will look into getting a Battery Master fitted then it should charge from the solar panel.

I will check the voltage across the terminals daily for a few days to see what it does. I am slightly concerned that draining it may have caused damage requiring a replacement. Off tho the lakes for New Year so need to make sure it’s fine.

thankyou for the info, that’s the sort of knowledge I need.

peter

[peterjl]

Thank you Tracker. My leisure battery is buried under the drivers seat and I think I would have to remove seat to access. 

I will keep an eye on battery and take the charger away with me over New Year. 

peter

[colin]

x250/290, a month without starting in summer is pushing your luck, and in winter is fairly certain to result in non starting. A decent run out every couple of weeks is good, failing that will need a charging regime.

[peterjl]

AN UPDATE AND MORE QUESTIONS.

i feel as though i am struggling here and have been looking at YouTube’s on changing a Ducato battery!

any way first latest on condition albeit I think I have been using the multimeter incorrectly.

took Moho for 50 mile run on motorway yesterday and two hours after returning checked voltage as 12.47 v HOWEVER I have been checking voltage across the jump stat points under the bonnet so I didn’t have to lift carpet.

this afternoon I did same and voltage dropped to 12.32v however I then decided to look at battery to measure size and checked voltage which was lower at 12.23v

being unsure why it would be lower ( I assumed if anything that I would have lost voltage between battery and jump point, I consulted the handbook and note that whilst the charger only charges leisure battery it also provides a FLOAT charge to vehicle, so I assume the solar panel also provides 5his float charge.

soooooo, was I wrong using jump points to measure voltage

with the lower voltage across battery is this indicative of a problem.

lnrxtmeasured battery in case I have to change and it seems to be about 390mm long by 270mm wide. I can’t get a height as not enough space. Do these sizes influence battery I can get?

Lastly the battery seems to be AGM as the writing on top says suitable for start/ stop even though my  Moho doesn’t have 5hat. Do I have to replace like with like?

sorry to be a pain guys but I am well out of my comfort zone here so I am trying to gather info and Google has me more confused than when I started!

peter

[Derek Uzzell]

2 hours ago, peterjl said:

AN UPDATE AND MORE QUESTIONS.

...lnrxtmeasured battery in case I have to change and it seems to be about 390mm long by 270mm wide. I can’t get a height as not enough space. Do these sizes influence battery I can get?

Lastly the battery seems to be AGM as the writing on top says suitable for start/ stop even though my  Moho doesn’t have 5hat. Do I have to replace like with like?...

Historically, since the 'X250' Ducato range was introduced in mid-2006, the starter-battery has been housed in a compartment beneath the cab-floor, and the battery has been dimensionally a '019' size (Length x Width x Height = 353mm x 175mm x 190mm)  or - when the 3.0litre motor used to be fitted pre-2015 - a '020' size (Length x Width x Height = 393mm x 175mm x 190mm). 

Although your battery has "suitable for start/stop" on its upper surface, that does not automatically mean that it is AGM-type - it might be EFB-type (Enhanced Flooded Battery). To be certain what you've got, you may have to remove components that sit above the battery's top to check its make and reference data. And if that's still not conclusive, you will have  to get the battery out of its compartment so that any labelling on its sides can be seen.

This link provides information on EFB and AGM batteries.

https://batteryworld.varta-automotive.com/en-gb/efb-or-agm-which-battery-do-i-need

The usual advice is to replace a starter-battery on a like-for-like basis. So if a vehicle was factory-fitted with an ordinary wet-acid battery, replace with an ordinary wet-acid battery. An EFB battery could be fitted instead, as this type has the same charging regimen as the wet-acid type.

But a factory-fitted wet-acid battery, or a factory-fitted EFB battery, should not be replaced with a AGM battery as the AGM charging regimen is different.

And, if a vehicle starts life with a AGM starter-battery, a replacement battery should always be AGM type.

If you took a voltage reading at the jump-start points and time passed before you took a reading at the battery's terminals, it would be understandable that the second reading would be lower than the first if the battery's voltage was reducing gradually towards 'voltage stability'. 

[peterjl]

Thank you Derek

the two battery readings, from jump point and battery terminals, were taken sequentially, maybe a minute or two between.

peter

[Keithl]

Hi Peter,

If you opened the door and either the interior lights came on or one of the many computers came to life then this would explain the lower voltage reading at the starter battery.

Keith.

[peterjl]

Thank you Keith

[Alanb]

4 hours ago, peterjl said:

AN UPDATE AND MORE QUESTIONS.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Took Moho for 50 mile run on motorway yesterday and two hours after returning checked voltage as 12.47 v HOWEVER I have been checking voltage across the jump stat points under the bonnet so I didn’t have to lift carpet.

this afternoon I did same and voltage dropped to 12.32v however I then decided to look at battery to measure size and checked voltage which was lower at 12.23v

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I consulted the handbook and note that whilst the charger only charges leisure battery it also provides a FLOAT

l next measured battery in case I have to change and it seems to be about 390mm long by 270mm wide. I can’t get a height as not enough space. Do these sizes influence battery I can get?

Lastly the battery seems to be AGM as the writing on top says suitable for start/ stop even though my  Moho doesn’t have 5hat. Do I have to replace like with like?

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Sorry to be a pain guys but I am well out of my comfort zone here so I am trying to gather info and Google has me more confused than when I started!

peter

@peterjl

Hi Peter,

I have quoted only part of your post above, and made some minor corrections, which I trust will be OK with you.

After a 50 mile run, I would have expected more than your quoted readings of around 12.3V, as this voltage would represent a partially discharged battery.

You mention that the onboard charger provides a trickle charge to the starter battery. The popular CBE , and Schaudt Electroblok provide this feature, and there probably are others.

I assume that the 278mm wider was a typo, 178 mm is typical.  The 390 mm length suggests a "020" physical battery size.

There is a procedure for disconnecting the starter battery on an x250.  Consult driver's handbook, for precise details.

For safety, always disconnect the negative first, and reconnect last. Weight  anof 020 size battery will be around 27kg.

Take heart, those whom I consider a pain are generally those who are unwilling to learn.  Do be aware of your limits, but nothing ventured, nothing won.

What can cause confusion on a forum, is too many different pieces of advice, possibly suggesting different courses of action.

Alan

[peterjl]

Thank you Alan. 

[Alanb]

@peterjl Just a thought as I retire for the night.  Is the vehicle fitted with a smart alternator? If yes, then it would help to explain some of the low battery readings.

Did not see any mention when scanning thread, but I may have overlooked it.

Alan

[Derek Uzzell]

In 2019 certain Ducato variants began to be fitted with a 'smart-alternator' and a stop/stop system as standard.

It should be straightforward to identify if a Ducato has "Start&Stop" (as Fiat calls the system) as there's a dedicated button on the dashboard.

It's reasonable to assume that a 2021 Ducato WITH Start&Stop will also have a smart-alternator and may well have the type of starter-battery (EFB or AGM) recommended for vehicles with a stop/start system. Ducato Owner Handbooks covering the period 2019-2021 include a section on Start&Stop, but the only relevant advice on the starter-battery is that a replacement should be the same type and specification.

Peter has said that his Ducato-based Roadstar 600L motorhome does not have Stop&Start, but that doesn't necessarily mean it doesn't have a smart-alternator, nor whether (in 2021) Fiat would have standardised on the starter-battery specification and fitted a 'start-stop suitable' battery for all Ducatos irrespective of whether or not they were fitted with Stop&Start.

My benighted Hyundai car's incomprehensible electrical system makes taking battery charge-state voltage readings tricky as just opening the vehicle's bonnet causes the car's electronics to light up and apply a load to the battery.

As Keith has warned, if Peter's motorhome's electrical system is still up and running when the voltage reading is taken at the battery terminals, the reading is likely to be lower than one taken at the jump-start points. Shut all the doors, make sure everything electrical is off, wait 10 minutes then take an at-the-battery-terminals voltage reading.

[colin]

20 hours ago, peterjl said:

being unsure why it would be lower ( I assumed if anything that I would have lost voltage between battery and jump point, I consulted the handbook and note that whilst the charger only charges leisure battery it also provides a FLOAT charge to vehicle, so I assume the solar panel also provides 5his float charge.

Depends how the solar is wired in, the dealer wired ours to the leisure batteries, so technically no charge goes to the vehicle battery, but just to muddy the waters, in summer the vehicle battery voltage has been known to rise, it almost seems as if a large excess of solar charging can cause a 'leak' of a small current to vehicle battery, but it doesn't happen in winter.

[onecal]

Hi

Have the battery tested , if ok use it and your motorhome for more regular runs , if not replace it, or if under warranty have it replaced  

The main thing is to enjoy  

Regards

[peterjl]

Hi everybody. 
thankyou for your very helpful advice.

having read it all through, and having another look at my vehicle I feel a bit of a fool. It has the start/stop facility, it appears to be on ( ie led light is off) but to my recollection it has never stopped then restarted. Where i sit when driving I cannot easily see the switch so have never investigated, I just get in and drive, 22000 miles so far!

Derek, thankyou for your very full response, without that I would never have looked for the stop/start switch.

i imagine that may alter the position a bit. I must have a smart alternator although I have no idea what that means.

anyway, I followed Dereks advise, in vehicle with doors closed for 10 minutes, then tested at battery terminals. With multimeter set at 20dc it read 1 so I switched to 200dc and it read 219.

i then checked at jump point, getting 1 again although if I didn’t press contacts too hard getting 14 to 19v depending on pressure I put on probes.

tried starting, no problem. Checking at jump points whist idling = 16 - 18v

Thinking about what has changed, it’s been a lovely sunny day and I wondered if solar panel had had an effect?

I am feeling a bit more comfortable about condition now. I will continue to check voltage every 48 hrs and also, will look into getting battery tested albeit one Fiat professional I spoke to couldn’t fit me in until Feb next year!

If you think I need more, or different action please let me know and apologies that I led you astray about stopstart. 

if nothing else I have learnt a lot about my vehicle over the last few days.

peter

 

 

Edited December 6, 2023 by peterjl

[onecal]

Hi Peter

That's great news 

Now enjoy 

Regards

Edited December 6, 2023 by onecal

[hja]

Just a quick note on the stop start.  We have a 2021 Ducato with stop start. It used to do so regularly. I was fine with this, save a bit of fuel and also stop fumes etc in standing traffic. Then I noticed no longer doing stop start. Last May, due in for service, was going to mention it and it started working again!.  Didnt last long and currently no stop start.  Seems lots of things can effect it, so I have just shrugged my shoulders at it!

[onecal]

Hi 

It can make diagnosis very easy , sometimes 

Regards

[Derek Uzzell]

The 2021 Ducato Owner Handbook devotes several pages to the Start&Stop system, listing various reasons for the system not operating. 

This Banner link may be of interest

https://www.bannerbatterien.com/en-gb/Battery-knowledge/6-Start-stop-technology

and these videos may be helpful regarding 'smart' alternators.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0uIvz_6YMhA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nkb0nSuRQxE

This 2022 MHFun forum thread may also be worth browsing through

https://www.motorhomefun.co.uk/forum/threads/solar-and-b2b.258715/

It's to be expected that 'thinking' motorhome converters will recognise that the base-vehicle has a smart alternator and take measures to ensure that leisure batteries are adequately charged while the vehicle is being driven. The usual ploy is to install a B2B (Battery-to-Battery) device, but comments in the MHFun thread indicate that this does not always happen!!!

[peterjl]

Thank you Derek. I have watched the YouTube videos which has helped.