antony1969 Posted March 31, 2018 Author Share Posted March 31, 2018 Brian Kirby - 2018-03-30 1:19 PM antony1969 - 2018-03-29 6:52 PM................... 1 ... Simple enough Brian , knowing I've been to Muslim countries obviously isn't enough is it ... I asked you what info you wanted and listed a few but I presume you need to know if they were adult or childhood holidays by what you've posted so they were defo adult holidays with my missus and children 2 ... I don't react strongly to being called Islamaphobic , I ask for evidence to back up the claim which as yet those who've called it me haven't produced ... Reacting strongly and asking for evidence are 2 different things Brian maybe something you could look further in to 3 ... Brian if you believe it's about political embarrassment rather than exposing the vile racism in the Labour Party then I feel sorry for you 1 OK, bet before, or after, you began to feel the suspicion of Muslims that you demonstrate on here? 2 But you do, your demands for proof are fatuous. People reach that conclusion through reading your own words. Your posts are whatever proof is needed. 3 Sorry, I may not have been clear. I think the criticisms are in part being made because they are embarrassing to labour and to Corbyn, and to that extent are politically motivated. There is a serious and totally valid charge of anti-Semitism to be made against members of the Labour party, but it isn't best served by political opportunists joining in with synthetically inflated statements of outrage. 1... I've always questioned the religion ... If folk follow the religion then I'd have to question why you'd want to follow such a religion when it's openly wrongs so many ... Though let's be honest many don't follow it through choice 2 ... Sorry that's rubbish ... If my posts are so full of Racism and Islamaphobia then when I've previously asked for evidence it wouldn't have taken much to quote me would it ... So why don't you ??? 3 ... "political opportunists ... Is that aimed at me ??? ... I'd guess so ... I like Jews , have worked for many in Leeds and Manchester and I've never had a problem with them with payment ... I've always found them decent family orientated folk who I believe add much to our country so my outrage at those who may end up in power in our country is very real thank you and so should everyone's ... Many scream and rant at POTUS Trumps supposed racism on here yet say nothing over Corbyns clan being racist , that Brian is political opportunism Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted March 31, 2018 Share Posted March 31, 2018 antony1969 - 2018-03-31 7:47 AM I like Jews , have worked for many and I've never had a problem with them with payment ... I've always found them decent family orientated folk who I believe add much to our country so my outrage at those who may end up in power in our country is very real thank you and so should everyone's ... Many scream and rant at POTUS Trumps supposed racism on here yet say nothing over Corbyns clan being racist , that Brian is political opportunism My experience and sentiments too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted March 31, 2018 Share Posted March 31, 2018 antony1969 - 2018-03-31 7:47 AM............................ 2 ... Sorry that's rubbish ... If my posts are so full of Racism and Islamaphobia then when I've previously asked for evidence it wouldn't have taken much to quote me would it ... So why don't you ??? 3 ... "political opportunists ... Is that aimed at me ??? ... I'd guess so ... I like Jews , have worked for many in Leeds and Manchester and I've never had a problem with them with payment ... I've always found them decent family orientated folk who I believe add much to our country so my outrage at those who may end up in power in our country is very real thank you and so should everyone's ... Many scream and rant at POTUS Trumps supposed racism on here yet say nothing over Corbyns clan being racist , that Brian is political opportunism 2 Why would I? Where I have disagreed with what you have said on grounds of bias, I have quoted your own post above my reply, so it's already there. I can't answer of others, can I? But, you are very defensive when anyone accuses you of racism or Islamophobia, and you reply saying you are neither. On that basis you are surely arguing that you have been misunderstood, or misrepresented? I assume that is disagreeable to you, and that you would prefer it not to happen. That is the impression I gain from reading your posts. 3 To answer your question: no, it was not aimed at you. All forms of collective discrimination against others, on whatever grounds, are abhorrent. But, when a person from a particular race, colour or creed does something for which they are criticised, it is not unknown for them to say they are being picked on merely because they are of that race, colour, or creed. That was the underlying problem with the gangs of young Muslim men getting away with widespread abuse of young girls. The authorities were afraid to confront them because they played "the race card". It is the same with politics. Someone from a particular group behaves badly and, if that group is a political party, there is a justifiable outcry, but there is also a somewhat synthetic outcry from a lot of people who are at least as concerned with knocking the party as with whatever it was that was the source of the row. Where the bad behaviour was racial (or any other) discrimination (or some equally serious matter), this "jumping on the bandwagon" gives the perpetrators cover, because they can dismiss the criticism as politically motivated, which detracts from the force of the criticism. That is why I don't like the rabid political opportunists who use any excuse to "knock the other side". It is counter-productive, unthinking, tribalism - which I dislike almost as much as I dislike discrimination, because it provides fig leaves for the perpetrator/s to pull over their wrongdoing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antony1969 Posted March 31, 2018 Author Share Posted March 31, 2018 Brian Kirby - 2018-03-31 3:29 PM antony1969 - 2018-03-31 7:47 AM............................ 2 ... Sorry that's rubbish ... If my posts are so full of Racism and Islamaphobia then when I've previously asked for evidence it wouldn't have taken much to quote me would it ... So why don't you ??? 3 ... "political opportunists ... Is that aimed at me ??? ... I'd guess so ... I like Jews , have worked for many in Leeds and Manchester and I've never had a problem with them with payment ... I've always found them decent family orientated folk who I believe add much to our country so my outrage at those who may end up in power in our country is very real thank you and so should everyone's ... Many scream and rant at POTUS Trumps supposed racism on here yet say nothing over Corbyns clan being racist , that Brian is political opportunism 2 Why would I? Where I have disagreed with what you have said on grounds of bias, I have quoted your own post above my reply, so it's already there. I can't answer of others, can I? But, you are very defensive when anyone accuses you of racism or Islamophobia, and you reply saying you are neither. On that basis you are surely arguing that you have been misunderstood, or misrepresented? I assume that is disagreeable to you, and that you would prefer it not to happen. That is the impression I gain from reading your posts. 3 To answer your question: no, it was not aimed at you. All forms of collective discrimination against others, on whatever grounds, are abhorrent. But, when a person from a particular race, colour or creed does something for which they are criticised, it is not unknown for them to say they are being picked on merely because they are of that race, colour, or creed. That was the underlying problem with the gangs of young Muslim men getting away with widespread abuse of young girls. The authorities were afraid to confront them because they played "the race card". It is the same with politics. Someone from a particular group behaves badly and, if that group is a political party, there is a justifiable outcry, but there is also a somewhat synthetic outcry from a lot of people who are at least as concerned with knocking the party as with whatever it was that was the source of the row. Where the bad behaviour was racial (or any other) discrimination (or some equally serious matter), this "jumping on the bandwagon" gives the perpetrators cover, because they can dismiss the criticism as politically motivated, which detracts from the force of the criticism. That is why I don't like the rabid political opportunists who use any excuse to "knock the other side". It is counter-productive, unthinking, tribalism - which I dislike almost as much as I dislike discrimination, because it provides fig leaves for the perpetrator/s to pull over their wrongdoing. 2 ... But Brian I might say about you from your posts your a boring , wet politically correct fart might I because that might be the opinion I get from your posts ... It doesn't mean it's true and I would fully expect you to challenge me for proof of such if I called you that 3 ... I'm glad to say I disagree ... People are quite rightly angered by Labour's anti-Semitic views because Jewish people on the whole in this country are all decent people and certainly don't deserve our opposition party making light of the holocaust and other disgusting remarks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted March 31, 2018 Share Posted March 31, 2018 Brian Kirby - 2018-03-31 3:29 PM All forms of collective discrimination against others, on whatever grounds, are abhorrent. So you haven't bothered to read the Koran ;-) ........ Yet still feel qualified to call folk Islamophobic *-) .......... How very middle class (lol) ....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted March 31, 2018 Share Posted March 31, 2018 antony1969 - 2018-03-31 4:00 PM People are quite rightly angered by Labour's anti-Semitic views.... Given the links i've previously posted it's clear to see racism is not party exclusive but cross party, a fact you seem to ignore. Does your anger over racism in Labour extend to that in the Tory party too......as you haven't acknowleged it exists among their ranks? As for "our opposition party making light of the holocaust..." which is certainly a wild sweeping generalisation (!!) look no further than the political affiliations of known Holocaust denier David Irving and also ask yourself where the historic roots of anti-semitism grew. Some reading for you. https://www.newstatesman.com/culture/observations/2017/01/anti-semitism-right-wing-problem?amp&__twitter_impression=true Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted March 31, 2018 Share Posted March 31, 2018 antony1969 - 2018-03-31 4:00 PM...................................... 2 ... But Brian I might say about you from your posts your a boring , wet politically correct fart might I because that might be the opinion I get from your posts ... It doesn't mean it's true and I would fully expect you to challenge me for proof of such if I called you that 3 ... I'm glad to say I disagree ... People are quite rightly angered by Labour's anti-Semitic views because Jewish people on the whole in this country are all decent people and certainly don't deserve our opposition party making light of the holocaust and other disgusting remarks 2 Indeed you might Antony, but if you'd drawn that conclusion from my posts, and I then asked me to prove it, my guess is that you'd say "just read your own posts, you're condemned by your own writing". 3 I don't think I said otherwise, did I? But, holocaust denial doesn't seem to me anti Semitic. The holocaust itself was of course a grotesque act of anti-Semitism, but I don't see how denying that it happened is. It denies that a well documented historic event took place, but that is not, in and of itself, proof that the denier is a hater of Jews. It is merely proof that the person doesn't want, for whatever reason, to admit to themselves that such an event took place. That may well rule them out of many public offices, but on political grounds rather than for being an anti-Semite. Holocaust denial is anti history, yes, but if someone were to deny that the Norman invasion took place, and that thousands of Saxons were killed during their invasion, it wouldn't make that person Francophobic, would it? It would certainly make them odd, eccentric, even ignorant and unpleasant but, in my opinion, no worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antony1969 Posted March 31, 2018 Author Share Posted March 31, 2018 Bulletguy - 2018-03-31 5:47 PM antony1969 - 2018-03-31 4:00 PM People are quite rightly angered by Labour's anti-Semitic views.... Given the links i've previously posted it's clear to see racism is not party exclusive but cross party, a fact you seem to ignore. Does your anger over racism in Labour extend to that in the Tory party too......as you haven't acknowleged it exists among their ranks? As for "our opposition party making light of the holocaust..." which is certainly a wild sweeping generalisation (!!) look no further than the political affiliations of known Holocaust denier David Irving and also ask yourself where the historic roots of anti-semitism grew. Some reading for you. https://www.newstatesman.com/culture/observations/2017/01/anti-semitism-right-wing-problem?amp&__twitter_impression=true Racism exists in all walks of life ... Some are more racist , bigoted , homophobic than others as it's taught to them almost from birth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antony1969 Posted March 31, 2018 Author Share Posted March 31, 2018 Brian Kirby - 2018-03-31 5:49 PM antony1969 - 2018-03-31 4:00 PM...................................... 2 ... But Brian I might say about you from your posts your a boring , wet politically correct fart might I because that might be the opinion I get from your posts ... It doesn't mean it's true and I would fully expect you to challenge me for proof of such if I called you that 3 ... I'm glad to say I disagree ... People are quite rightly angered by Labour's anti-Semitic views because Jewish people on the whole in this country are all decent people and certainly don't deserve our opposition party making light of the holocaust and other disgusting remarks 2 Indeed you might Antony, but if you'd drawn that conclusion from my posts, and I then asked me to prove it, my guess is that you'd say "just read your own posts, you're condemned by your own writing". 3 I don't think I said otherwise, did I? But, holocaust denial doesn't seem to me anti Semitic. The holocaust itself was of course a grotesque act of anti-Semitism, but I don't see how denying that it happened is. It denies that a well documented historic event took place, but that is not, in and of itself, proof that the denier is a hater of Jews. It is merely proof that the person doesn't want, for whatever reason, to admit to themselves that such an event took place. That may well rule them out of many public offices, but on political grounds rather than for being an anti-Semite. Holocaust denial is anti history, yes, but if someone were to deny that the Norman invasion took place, and that thousands of Saxons were killed during their invasion, it wouldn't make that person Francophobic, would it? It would certainly make them odd, eccentric, even ignorant and unpleasant but, in my opinion, no worse. 2 ... Your guess would be wrong ... If I was asked to prove it and couldn't then it would be obvious to all the forum who the tool was ... Me 3 ... Sorry Brian ... I don't believe denying the holocaust could happen for any other reason than the denier being anti-Semitic ... Could you give any other explanation to deny a well documented fact like the holocaust Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted April 1, 2018 Share Posted April 1, 2018 Bulletguy - 2018-03-31 5:47 PM antony1969 - 2018-03-31 4:00 PM People are quite rightly angered by Labour's anti-Semitic views.... Given the links i've previously posted it's clear to see racism is not party exclusive but cross party, a fact you seem to ignore. Does your anger over racism in Labour extend to that in the Tory party too......as you haven't acknowleged it exists among their ranks? As for "our opposition party making light of the holocaust..." which is certainly a wild sweeping generalisation (!!) look no further than the political affiliations of known Holocaust denier David Irving and also ask yourself where the historic roots of anti-semitism grew. Some reading for you. https://www.newstatesman.com/culture/observations/2017/01/anti-semitism-right-wing-problem?amp&__twitter_impression=true The New Statesman eh?........A left wing rag (lol) .........So no bias there eh? ;-) ....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted April 1, 2018 Share Posted April 1, 2018 antony1969 - 2018-03-31 7:26 PM . Could you give any other explanation to deny a well documented fact like the holocaust Could be for the same reason that some people deny the extremely well documented fact that the earth is round. Poor education ? :-| Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted April 1, 2018 Share Posted April 1, 2018 malc d - 2018-04-01 10:50 AM Could be for the same reason that some people deny the extremely well documented fact that the earth is round. You might need to rethink that one Malc - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It%27s_a_Square_World Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antony1969 Posted April 1, 2018 Author Share Posted April 1, 2018 malc d - 2018-04-01 10:50 AM antony1969 - 2018-03-31 7:26 PM . Could you give any other explanation to deny a well documented fact like the holocaust Could be for the same reason that some people deny the extremely well documented fact that the earth is round. Poor education ? :-| Really ??? ... I don't think education comes into it ... Agenda defo and hatred of Jews Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted April 1, 2018 Share Posted April 1, 2018 Talking of agenda's ;-) ......... I wonder what Bullet thinks of this statistic :D ....... http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5566689/London-murder-rate-overtakes-New-York-time-including-11-killings-just-16-days.html Just askin >:-) ........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted April 1, 2018 Share Posted April 1, 2018 malc d - 2018-04-01 10:50 AM antony1969 - 2018-03-31 7:26 PM . Could you give any other explanation to deny a well documented fact like the holocaust Could be for the same reason that some people deny the extremely well documented fact that the earth is round. Poor education ? :-| I put it down to the fact that some folk are sloppy with their PC ethic's, and believe anything written in left wing rags >:-) ............. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted April 1, 2018 Share Posted April 1, 2018 pelmetman - 2018-04-01 8:41 AM Bulletguy - 2018-03-31 5:47 PM antony1969 - 2018-03-31 4:00 PM People are quite rightly angered by Labour's anti-Semitic views.... Given the links i've previously posted it's clear to see racism is not party exclusive but cross party, a fact you seem to ignore. Does your anger over racism in Labour extend to that in the Tory party too......as you haven't acknowleged it exists among their ranks? As for "our opposition party making light of the holocaust..." which is certainly a wild sweeping generalisation (!!) look no further than the political affiliations of known Holocaust denier David Irving and also ask yourself where the historic roots of anti-semitism grew. Some reading for you. https://www.newstatesman.com/culture/observations/2017/01/anti-semitism-right-wing-problem?amp&__twitter_impression=true The New Statesman eh?........A left wing rag (lol) .........So no bias there eh? ;-) ....... You will like this even less in that case then. Knowing your 'love' for polls here is a YouGov poll. YouGov has known established links to the Tory party. So no bias here eh? ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted April 1, 2018 Share Posted April 1, 2018 Bulletguy - 2018-04-01 5:49 PM pelmetman - 2018-04-01 8:41 AM Bulletguy - 2018-03-31 5:47 PM antony1969 - 2018-03-31 4:00 PM People are quite rightly angered by Labour's anti-Semitic views.... Given the links i've previously posted it's clear to see racism is not party exclusive but cross party, a fact you seem to ignore. Does your anger over racism in Labour extend to that in the Tory party too......as you haven't acknowleged it exists among their ranks? As for "our opposition party making light of the holocaust..." which is certainly a wild sweeping generalisation (!!) look no further than the political affiliations of known Holocaust denier David Irving and also ask yourself where the historic roots of anti-semitism grew. Some reading for you. https://www.newstatesman.com/culture/observations/2017/01/anti-semitism-right-wing-problem?amp&__twitter_impression=true The New Statesman eh?........A left wing rag (lol) .........So no bias there eh? ;-) ....... You will like this even less in that case then. Knowing your 'love' for polls here is a YouGov poll. YouGov has known established links to the Tory party. So no bias here eh? ;-) I presume you can link to the Yougov poll rather than your homemade jpeg? ;-) ....... Just askin for clarification? :D ........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antony1969 Posted April 1, 2018 Author Share Posted April 1, 2018 pelmetman - 2018-04-01 5:30 PM Talking of agenda's ;-) ......... I wonder what Bullet thinks of this statistic :D ....... http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5566689/London-murder-rate-overtakes-New-York-time-including-11-killings-just-16-days.html Just askin >:-) ........ He'll think it's a success prolly ... Under Sadick London has become what one might call even more of a sh8thole ... Can't think why I never visit that dump though I do have to endure a few days in the summer thanks to the missus... minging place Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted April 1, 2018 Share Posted April 1, 2018 antony1969 - 2018-04-01 6:03 PM pelmetman - 2018-04-01 5:30 PM Talking of agenda's ;-) ......... I wonder what Bullet thinks of this statistic :D ....... http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5566689/London-murder-rate-overtakes-New-York-time-including-11-killings-just-16-days.html Just askin >:-) ........ He'll think it's a success prolly ... Under Sadick London has become what one might call even more of a sh8thole ... Can't think why I never visit that dump though I do have to endure a few days in the summer thanks to the missus... minging place Enjoy :D ........Whilst your there you can play spot the Cockney (lol) ........Good luck 8-) ......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted April 1, 2018 Share Posted April 1, 2018 pelmetman - 2018-04-01 6:00 PM Bulletguy - 2018-04-01 5:49 PM pelmetman - 2018-04-01 8:41 AM Bulletguy - 2018-03-31 5:47 PM antony1969 - 2018-03-31 4:00 PM People are quite rightly angered by Labour's anti-Semitic views.... Given the links i've previously posted it's clear to see racism is not party exclusive but cross party, a fact you seem to ignore. Does your anger over racism in Labour extend to that in the Tory party too......as you haven't acknowleged it exists among their ranks? As for "our opposition party making light of the holocaust..." which is certainly a wild sweeping generalisation (!!) look no further than the political affiliations of known Holocaust denier David Irving and also ask yourself where the historic roots of anti-semitism grew. Some reading for you. https://www.newstatesman.com/culture/observations/2017/01/anti-semitism-right-wing-problem?amp&__twitter_impression=true The New Statesman eh?........A left wing rag (lol) .........So no bias there eh? ;-) ....... You will like this even less in that case then. Knowing your 'love' for polls here is a YouGov poll. YouGov has known established links to the Tory party. So no bias here eh? ;-) I presume you can link to the Yougov poll rather than your homemade jpeg? ;-) ....... Just askin for clarification? :D ........... Fill yer boots. https://antisemitism.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/Antisemitism-Barometer-2017.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antony1969 Posted April 1, 2018 Author Share Posted April 1, 2018 pelmetman - 2018-04-01 6:11 PM antony1969 - 2018-04-01 6:03 PM pelmetman - 2018-04-01 5:30 PM Talking of agenda's ;-) ......... I wonder what Bullet thinks of this statistic :D ....... http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5566689/London-murder-rate-overtakes-New-York-time-including-11-killings-just-16-days.html Just askin >:-) ........ He'll think it's a success prolly ... Under Sadick London has become what one might call even more of a sh8thole ... Can't think why I never visit that dump though I do have to endure a few days in the summer thanks to the missus... minging place Enjoy :D ........Whilst your there you can play spot the Cockney (lol) ........Good luck 8-) ......... Knife crime up ... Gun crime up ... Rape up ... Sadicks policies are whats up ... Cockneys left a long time ago Dave ... Why you might ask ... Forced multiculturalism Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted April 1, 2018 Share Posted April 1, 2018 Bulletguy - 2018-04-01 6:13 PM pelmetman - 2018-04-01 6:00 PM Bulletguy - 2018-04-01 5:49 PM pelmetman - 2018-04-01 8:41 AM Bulletguy - 2018-03-31 5:47 PM antony1969 - 2018-03-31 4:00 PM People are quite rightly angered by Labour's anti-Semitic views.... Given the links i've previously posted it's clear to see racism is not party exclusive but cross party, a fact you seem to ignore. Does your anger over racism in Labour extend to that in the Tory party too......as you haven't acknowleged it exists among their ranks? As for "our opposition party making light of the holocaust..." which is certainly a wild sweeping generalisation (!!) look no further than the political affiliations of known Holocaust denier David Irving and also ask yourself where the historic roots of anti-semitism grew. Some reading for you. https://www.newstatesman.com/culture/observations/2017/01/anti-semitism-right-wing-problem?amp&__twitter_impression=true The New Statesman eh?........A left wing rag (lol) .........So no bias there eh? ;-) ....... You will like this even less in that case then. Knowing your 'love' for polls here is a YouGov poll. YouGov has known established links to the Tory party. So no bias here eh? ;-) I presume you can link to the Yougov poll rather than your homemade jpeg? ;-) ....... Just askin for clarification? :D ........... Fill yer boots. https://antisemitism.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/Antisemitism-Barometer-2017.pdf I just did ;-) .......... TAKE PART SEE RESULTS SOLUTIONS Search... Filters All Topics Web Pages PDFs Date Range All Past 24 Hour Past Week Past Month Past Year Jump To Section Life Consumer Politics Commentary Archive Public Opinion Methodology SEARCH RESULTS FOR: Antisemitism Barometer RELATED ARTICLES No results RELATED PDFS Coz I'm a member of Yougov ;-) ....... Buggered if I can find anything relating to your pdf :-| ...... Did Corbyn write it? :D ....... Just askin? >:-) ....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted April 1, 2018 Share Posted April 1, 2018 BTW Bullet I did find this on the Yougov website ;-) ......... "Anti-Semitism in Labour: How Serious a Problem?Anti-Semitism in Labour: How Serious a Problem?For the last week or so Jeremy Corbyn has been struggling with the accusation that the Labour Party harbours a strong element of anti-Semitism; that he has done too little to quell it; and that he may actually be anti-Semitic himself. Follow @YouGov on twitter and stay up to date with the latest news and results FollowHe adamantly denies this and insists that as leader of the party he is determined to stamp it out. But Britain’s Jewish leaders are far from being persuaded and some of his own MPs have their doubts. Many of his supporters believe that the accusation is a smear born of his backing for the Palestinian cause and is being used by those in the party who have never accepted his leadership in order to undermine it. So how seriously should we take the charge that the Labour Party and its leader are anti-Semitic? To many people it will seem almost beyond comprehension that the Labour Party could be charged with anti-Semitism. That’s because for decades the party has been the natural home for British Jews. Their adherence to Labour goes back to the party’s long-held support for refugees and the down-trodden, the very groups from which the 260,000 British Jewish population mostly originates. It was also under a Labour government, administering the British mandate in Palestine, that the state of Israel came into being in 1948. But the charge of Labour anti-Semitism has been simmering for a long time, focused on the far left of the party of which Mr Corbyn was a prominent member during his thirty years as a rebellious back-bencher. It first came to the fore shortly after he became leader when a left-wing MP, Naz Shah, shared a Facebook post that called for the ‘transportation’ of all Israelis to America, and warned that ‘the Jews are rallying’. Ms Shah was suspended and she apologised, but she was defended by the much more prominent figure of Ken Livingstone, the former mayor of London and an old ally of Mr Corbyn. He claimed that Hitler had been a Zionist ‘before he went mad and ended up killing six million Jews’. This led to uproar and he, too, was suspended from the party. That suspension is still in effect. Mr Corbyn responded to the furore by setting up an inquiry into anti-Semitism in the party under Shami Chakrabarti, the former director of the human rights group, Liberty. Her report concluded that Labour was ‘not overrun by anti-Semitism’, leaving the impression in many people’s eyes that the report was a whitewash. This impression was strengthened when, soon afterwards, Mr Corbyn made her a peer and appointed her to the shadow cabinet. As a result of the report, seventy-five party members are being investigated but, critics complain, at a very slow pace. Now, however, the charge of anti-Semitism is being made against Mr Corbyn himself. Last weekend the Board of Deputies of British Jews and the Jewish Leadership Council published a joint open letter in which they said that ‘again and again, he has sided with anti-Semites rather than Jews’. This followed the revelation that in 2012 Mr Corbyn (then a backbencher of course) had opposed the removal of a mural that had appeared in the east end of London. It showed a group of bankers, several evidently Jewish, playing Monopoly on the backs of the world’s oppressed workers – an image strikingly reminiscent of Nazi propaganda. It also emerged that for seven years he belonged to three Facebook groups that traded in anti-Semitic conspiracy theories (although he did not directly contribute). Mr Corbyn has apologised about his response to the mural controversy on several occasions in the last week, but he claimed that at the time he hadn’t actually looked properly at it. This has cut little ice. His critics have pointed out that even the briefest glances at the image would have made the anti-Semitic message clear, and that if he didn’t look at it at all, he should have done since the whole controversy about whether or not the mural should be destroyed was solely because it was seen to be anti-Semitic. On Monday night an unprecedented protest by Jewish groups, including Labour supporters and MPs, was held outside Parliament. The charge of anti-Semitism in the party was stoked by a counter-demonstration of Mr Corbyn’s supporters. Subsequently, some of the MPs who had attended the main protest were targeted on social media by his supporters, in some case with threats of deselection. Mr Corbyn was also criticised for failing to attend a meeting of the Parliamentary party on Monday at which a Jewish Labour MP, Luciana Berger, was given a standing ovation for her stand; nor did he put the issue on the agenda of the shadow cabinet. Mr Corbyn’s critics argue that whether or not Mr Corbyn is himself anti-Semitic (one said he simply didn’t know), what is indisputable is that he has spent most of his political life among groups which are, or are very close to it. These groups, they argue, see the world in terms of a capitalist conspiracy, with Zionism at its heart. As one member, Gerry Downing, a former member of the general committee of Brent Central Labour Party, put it: ‘Zionism is in the vanguard role in the capitalist offensive against the workers’. Mr Downing has been expelled from the party but Mr Corbyn’s critics say such action is all too infrequent and that his inner group is dominated by people who ascribe to some version of this conspiracy theory and who encourage him to take a soft line. The charge of soft-pedalling was further fuelled on Wednesday. The chair of the party’s disputes panel, Christine Shawcroft, had to resign when it emerged that she had opposed the deselection of a pro-Corbyn local election candidate in Peterborough, Alan Bull, who had posted an article calling the Holocaust a hoax and allegedly shared another post suggesting that Israel and Isis worked together and that President Kennedy had been murdered by Mossad, Israel’s secret service. Mr Bull claims the evidence for these charges against him were ‘doctored screen shots. Under pressure, Ms Shawcroft then resigned from the panel and announced she would not seek re-election to Labour’s National Executive, but her critics say she should herself be brought in front of the disputes panel. Mr Corbyn’s supporters suspect that the campaign against him is due to his long-standing and outspoken opposition to the policies of successive Israeli governments and his support for Palestinian causes: he has called Hamas his ‘friends’. Some argue too that the issue is being ‘weaponised’ by those in the party who have never accepted Mr Corbyn as its leader, despite his having resoundingly won two leadership elections, and are using the smear of anti-Semitism to destroy his chances of becoming prime minister. Whatever the truth of this, Mr Corbyn’s allies have started to recognise that the problem cannot be brushed away simply with words of denial and even apology. John McDonnell, the shadow chancellor, admitted on Thursday morning that measures against anti-Semitism in the party had ‘not been implemented effectively’ and that action against members accused of it had to be speeded up. His critics want expulsions, with Ken Livingstone at the top of the list. But if Mr Corbyn were to act as forcefully as his critics want, he could alienate many of his strongest supporters. They might see such action as a weakening of his commitment to fighting the conspiracy that many of them genuinely believe to be at the centre of the problems of the world. What should we make of all this? Do you believe that Jeremy Corbyn is anti-Semitic or not? Do you think the Labour Party is? What’s your attitude to the belief that Zionism is at the heart of a capitalist conspiracy and do you think it plays a role in Labour’s thinking? What do you make of the idea that the charge of anti-Semitism is simply a smear by those who don’t share Mr Corbyn’s support for the Palestinian cause and opposition to Israeli policy, or who want to undermine his leadership? And what, if anything, do you think the Labour leader now needs to do to stop the issue from damaging Labour still further? Let us know your views." https://yougov.co.uk/news/2018/03/29/anti-semitism-labour-how-serious-problem/ Hmmm I wonder who wrote that pdf?.......any guesses Bullet? :D ....... Just askin ;-) ......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted April 1, 2018 Share Posted April 1, 2018 pelmetman - 2018-04-01 6:35 PM Bulletguy - 2018-04-01 6:13 PM pelmetman - 2018-04-01 6:00 PM I presume you can link to the Yougov poll rather than your homemade jpeg? ;-) ....... Just askin for clarification? :D ........... Fill yer boots. https://antisemitism.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/Antisemitism-Barometer-2017.pdf I just did ;-) Are you still using Windows 3 on dial up......because your search 'ability' seems badly lacking limited to Daily Heil or Twitter. Here......and look for the obvious yourself. I've done enough wet nursing for you today. *-) https://antisemitism.uk/barometer/ Did Corbyn write it? :D ....... The co-founder of YouGov is a Muslim Tory MP. Black Rock is one of it's major shareholders.......same company who pay George Osborne £650k pa for doing errr.....not very much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted April 1, 2018 Share Posted April 1, 2018 antony1969 - 2018-03-31 7:26 PM Brian Kirby - 2018-03-31 5:49 PM antony1969 - 2018-03-31 4:00 PM...................................... 2 ... But Brian I might say about you from your posts your a boring , wet politically correct fart might I because that might be the opinion I get from your posts ... It doesn't mean it's true and I would fully expect you to challenge me for proof of such if I called you that 3 ... I'm glad to say I disagree ... People are quite rightly angered by Labour's anti-Semitic views because Jewish people on the whole in this country are all decent people and certainly don't deserve our opposition party making light of the holocaust and other disgusting remarks 2 Indeed you might Antony, but if you'd drawn that conclusion from my posts, and I then asked me to prove it, my guess is that you'd say "just read your own posts, you're condemned by your own writing". 3 I don't think I said otherwise, did I? But, holocaust denial doesn't seem to me anti Semitic. The holocaust itself was of course a grotesque act of anti-Semitism, but I don't see how denying that it happened is. It denies that a well documented historic event took place, but that is not, in and of itself, proof that the denier is a hater of Jews. It is merely proof that the person doesn't want, for whatever reason, to admit to themselves that such an event took place. That may well rule them out of many public offices, but on political grounds rather than for being an anti-Semite. Holocaust denial is anti history, yes, but if someone were to deny that the Norman invasion took place, and that thousands of Saxons were killed during their invasion, it wouldn't make that person Francophobic, would it? It would certainly make them odd, eccentric, even ignorant and unpleasant but, in my opinion, no worse. 2 ... Your guess would be wrong ... If I was asked to prove it and couldn't then it would be obvious to all the forum who the tool was ... Me 3 ... Sorry Brian ... I don't believe denying the holocaust could happen for any other reason than the denier being anti-Semitic ... Could you give any other explanation to deny a well documented fact like the holocaust 2 So, how would you prove I am "a boring , wet politically correct fart" if that were the opinion you get from my posts? The best proof you could present would be no more than opinion, wouldn't it? But, opinion is not proof: proof requires factual evidence and, in the matter of whether someone is boring, wet, politically correct, or a fart, factual evidence is unlikely to be found, because those things are but one person's opinion of another. That is why I said your frequent requests for proof are fatuous: no proof is possible. 3 But that is belief, and you might just hold that belief because you haven't yet given the possibility sufficient consideration. It wasn't the Jews who conducted the holocaust, they were the victims. So, anyone who was deeply horrified and ashamed that one group of people, especially their own people, could treat another group in that way, in the 20th century, in Christian northern Europe, might refuse to believe such a thing could ever have happened. That reaction might be more prevalent in Germany, in parts of eastern France, in Austria, and especially Poland. After all, the camps weren't located in Germany but in Poland, at Chelmno, Belzec, Sobibór, Treblinka, Auschwitz, Majdanek, Trostenets, in Croatia, near Gospic and Jasenovac. There must be thousands of people who have reason to deny that such events took place in the areas where they live. I find that understandable. Being so deeply ashamed and humiliated by what your fellow countrymen, or even neighbours, did during the war, that one refuses to believe it possible, seems entirely understandable to me. Now, I am not suggesting that no holocaust deniers are anti-Semites (I am happy to accept that the majority of today's deniers probably are - some notoriously so): that would be foolish. But, by the same token, it is equally foolish to argue that all holocaust deniers must be anti-Semites merely on the ground that others are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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