Will health & safety prove to be the ultimate culprit for the deaths at Grenfell?.........

[antony1969]

John52 - 2018-07-03 6:28 AM

 

antony1969 - 2018-06-27 7:13 PM

 

. Im glad youve moved on from your previous posts though of blaming the Tories for all things Grenfell ... Cheers

 

As I have said before the Royal Borough has been Tory continuously since 1964 - before Grenfell Tower got on to the drawing board.

So I ask again - how can we discuss Grenfell without blaming the Tories?

 

Short answer ... You can't ... You and t'other Grenfell activist have shown time and again it's about nothing else other than a tool to bash the Tories ... Shame

[Brian Kirby]

Truth to tell, this is far more widespread than RBKC. There are now an additional known 300 or so buildings, built by developers for private sale or rent, that have similar cladding that fails the building regulations requirements. That is somewhere in the region of 600 buildings in total around the country. RBKC only commissioned, approved, constructed, refurbished, or maintained, one of those buildings.

 

It is becoming increasingly clear that a change to the approved materials, introduced in 2007, is implicated. BRE (The Building Research Establishment per privatisation) conducted 7 successive full scale fire tests in 2017, on variations of the Grenfell cladding, using the three available types of aluminium composite cladding, and PIR, Phenolic, and rock fibre insulants, in various combinations.

 

Only one achieved the required standard on test. That, predictably, was the fire resistant version of the cladding in conjunction with rock fibre insulant. Both other cladding variants burned, and all other insulants burned, all to varying extents, all failing the test.

 

So, the question remains, why? Is it the way the change was worded, the acceptance of "desktop" studies of fire performance, or the specification of the test method? This is a systemic failure, not related to the performance, or party allegiance, of any single borough.

[Guest pelmetman]

Brian Kirby - 2018-07-03 10:37 AM

This is a systemic failure, not related to the performance, or party allegiance, of any single borough.

 

Not in the eyes of our resident loony lefties :D .........and he calls me mad? 8-) .......

 

 

[John52]

pelmetman - 2018-07-03 9:02 AM

 

So you know the political allegiances of those employed to run the planning department? *-) .........

 

 

If one of your employees caused a fire, would you deny responsibility, say he miust be a Labour supporter - and blame Jeremy Corbyn :-D

[John52]

Brian Kirby - 2018-07-03 10:37 AM

(The cladding) is a systemic failure, not related to the performance, or party allegiance, of any single borough.

 

 

That may be so.

But the cladding is only one contributory factor that caused the tragedy.!!!!!

[Guest pelmetman]

John52 - 2018-07-03 11:21 AM

 

Brian Kirby - 2018-07-03 10:37 AM

(The cladding) is a systemic failure, not related to the performance, or party allegiance, of any single borough.

 

 

That may be so.

But the cladding is only one contributory factor that caused the tragedy.!!!!!

 

So what else caused the tower block to go up in flames? *-) .........

 

You should give up now Peter.......as your Tory phobia is making you look a proper Lefty Labour Lunatic :D ........

 

 

[antony1969]

pelmetman - 2018-07-03 11:45 AM

 

John52 - 2018-07-03 11:21 AM

 

Brian Kirby - 2018-07-03 10:37 AM

(The cladding) is a systemic failure, not related to the performance, or party allegiance, of any single borough.

 

 

That may be so.

But the cladding is only one contributory factor that caused the tragedy.!!!!!

 

So what else caused the tower block to go up in flames? *-) .........

 

You should give up now Peter.......as your Tory phobia is making you look a proper Lefty Labour Lunatic :D ........

 

 

The weather??? .... Had it rained that night in the Royal Tory Borough then that may have helped to put the flames out ..

Ruddy Tory weathermen ... Sorry forgot we are on Chatterbox ... Weatherperson

[Brian Kirby]

John52 - 2018-07-03 11:21 AM

 

Brian Kirby - 2018-07-03 10:37 AM

(The cladding) is a systemic failure, not related to the performance, or party allegiance, of any single borough.

 

 

That may be so.

But the cladding is only one contributory factor that caused the tragedy.!!!!!

Well, yes Peter, it is only one factor.

 

But, the fire did not start in the cladding, it apparently started with a fridge/freezer in the kitchen of one of the flats. The fridge freezer set the kitchen ablaze. Once the kitchen was ablaze, the heat from the fire caused the kitchen window - new, as part of the renovations, and installed along with the cladding, either to shatter (which is normal), to melt (I understand they were uPVC) which is not normal, or the window surround to burn through, which would be very unusual.

 

So, however the fire escaped from the kitchen, it then set fire to the cladding. Once into the cladding, it progressed up through the next 19 floors in 12 minutes, spreading laterally as it went, and by-passing the windows and/or window surrounds on the flats above and to either side, to set fire to the interiors of those flats. That is the apparently settled conclusion of the reports on what caused the fire, and what allowed it to spread.

 

So, the fire went from flat to flat externally, and the cladding is the cause of its spread.

 

The other factors, by which I assume you mean the fire doors that, when tested, did not meet their stated standard because some of those supplied contained glazing that was not itself fire resisting, and the rubbish that reportedly has been allowed to accumulate in the lobbies, will have made escape more difficult - and for some of the residents impossible - but, in the absence of the cladding spreading the fire externally, there has been no informed suggestion that they, in and of themselves, actually contributed to the spread of the fire.

 

The tragedy took place because the flammable cladding actively spread the fire beyond the flat in which it started, and in so doing negated the basis of the fire safety design of the building, the fire escape provisions of the building, the method of dealing with fires in tall buildings to which the fire brigade are trained, and placed the fire brigade at considerably increased risk to themselves.

 

I honestly cannot see, on present evidence, how the political allegiances of any of the numerous local authorities within whose areas similar cladding has been used can be claimed to have influenced how such cladding came to be used.

[John52]

Brian Kirby - 2018-07-03 12:38 PM

The other factors, by which I assume you mean the fire doors .

 

Why would you assume I meant the fire doors - and not the removal of fire hoses from the landings for example?

[Bulletguy]

antony1969 - 2018-07-03 9:26 AM

 

John52 - 2018-07-03 6:28 AM

 

antony1969 - 2018-06-27 7:13 PM

 

. Im glad youve moved on from your previous posts though of blaming the Tories for all things Grenfell ... Cheers

 

As I have said before the Royal Borough has been Tory continuously since 1964 - before Grenfell Tower got on to the drawing board.

So I ask again - how can we discuss Grenfell without blaming the Tories?

 

Short answer ... You can't ...

So why so defensive of the indefensible?

 

You and t'other Grenfell activist have shown time and again it's about nothing else other than a tool to bash the Tories ... Shame

Yes it's a shame you have no concept of possible criminal charges which may be brought against individuals. Manslaughter and or corporate manslaughter has been mentioned by the CPS which are extremely serious offences. It's not about "bashing Tories" and matters not which side of the political fence you are on....a persons political persuasion does not put them above the law.

[antony1969]

Bulletguy - 2018-07-03 2:52 PM

 

antony1969 - 2018-07-03 9:26 AM

 

John52 - 2018-07-03 6:28 AM

 

antony1969 - 2018-06-27 7:13 PM

 

. Im glad youve moved on from your previous posts though of blaming the Tories for all things Grenfell ... Cheers

 

As I have said before the Royal Borough has been Tory continuously since 1964 - before Grenfell Tower got on to the drawing board.

So I ask again - how can we discuss Grenfell without blaming the Tories?

 

Short answer ... You can't ...

So why so defensive of the indefensible?

 

You and t'other Grenfell activist have shown time and again it's about nothing else other than a tool to bash the Tories ... Shame

Yes it's a shame you have no concept of possible criminal charges which may be brought against individuals. Manslaughter and or corporate manslaughter has been mentioned by the CPS which are extremely serious offences. It's not about "bashing Tories" and matters not which side of the political fence you are on....a persons political persuasion does not put them above the law.

 

It's been obvious from day one Grenfell has been a very useful Tory bashing tool for you and John/Peter/James to use and nothing else wether the Tories deserve to be bashed or not ... It's a shame as those who are genuinely concerned on here have Prolly been put off posting because of the political nonsense ... Then not content with that you draw comparisons with the Bradford fire ... Just how it's similar other than they both had flames and killed folk I don't know

[Bulletguy]

antony1969 - 2018-07-03 3:27 PM

 

It's been obvious from day one Grenfell has been a very useful Tory bashing tool for you and John/Peter/James to use and nothing else wether the Tories deserve to be bashed or not ... It's a shame as those who are genuinely concerned on here have Prolly been put off posting because of the political nonsense ...

Looking at both threads the only "bashing" i've seen has come from you with your disparaging derogatory quite nasty comments about refugee residents, 'desperate politicising by the left to sabotage an accidental fire', 'people should be damn grateful to live rent free in such a place and even more so considering the countries some of those living in the block originally came from', 'holding candlelit vigils daring not to say Islamic terrorist when they continue to blow our children up', and more waffle of your usual xenophobic and Muslim hatred. Yes that certainly 'puts people off' for sure as they are sick of your hate filled posts.

 

I notice you didn't attempt to defend the indefensible. It would have been quite stupid to try. It's like this. You employ a team of roofers but don't equip them with PPE or ensure their safety....and the building is unsafe. Huge accident occurs resulting in a fatality or serious injury (just one is one too many). You cannot then say "but i'm a Tory and also voted Brexit so I cannot be held to account or charged with any offence/s.......they are all left wing so it's their fault, nothing to do with me."

 

I'm not sure why you were so concerned about the origin or nationality of the Grenfell residents.....all were human beings as far as i'm concerned, 72 of whom lost their lives in a horrendous fire that was quite possibly avoidable. The warnings had been there from the residents, but they were ignored.

 

[Guest pelmetman]

John52 - 2018-07-03 1:51 PM

 

Brian Kirby - 2018-07-03 12:38 PM

The other factors, by which I assume you mean the fire doors .

 

Why would you assume I meant the fire doors - and not the removal of fire hoses from the landings for example?

 

You mean like those removed from a tower block in "Labour" run Birmingham? >:-) ........

 

The day after Grenfell 8-) 8-) 8-) ..........

 

https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/emergency-fire-hoses-removed-birmingham-13212408

 

It's time to rename that moral high ground you and Bullet are on as......"Hypocrite Hill" (lol) (lol) (lol) (lol) (lol) ............

 

 

[antony1969]

Bulletguy - 2018-07-03 5:39 PM

 

antony1969 - 2018-07-03 3:27 PM

 

It's been obvious from day one Grenfell has been a very useful Tory bashing tool for you and John/Peter/James to use and nothing else wether the Tories deserve to be bashed or not ... It's a shame as those who are genuinely concerned on here have Prolly been put off posting because of the political nonsense ...

Looking at both threads the only "bashing" i've seen has come from you with your disparaging derogatory quite nasty comments about refugee residents, 'desperate politicising by the left to sabotage an accidental fire', 'people should be damn grateful to live rent free in such a place and even more so considering the countries some of those living in the block originally came from', 'holding candlelit vigils daring not to say Islamic terrorist when they continue to blow our children up', and more waffle of your usual xenophobic and Muslim hatred. Yes that certainly 'puts people off' for sure as they are sick of your hate filled posts.

 

I notice you didn't attempt to defend the indefensible. It would have been quite stupid to try. It's like this. You employ a team of roofers but don't equip them with PPE or ensure their safety....and the building is unsafe. Huge accident occurs resulting in a fatality or serious injury (just one is one too many). You cannot then say "but i'm a Tory and also voted Brexit so I cannot be held to account or charged with any offence/s.......they are all left wing so it's their fault, nothing to do with me."

 

I'm not sure why you were so concerned about the origin or nationality of the Grenfell residents.....all were human beings as far as i'm concerned, 72 of whom lost their lives in a horrendous fire that was quite possibly avoidable. The warnings had been there from the residents, but they were ignored.

 

Are you directly quoting me on those things youve mentioned or living in fantasy land again ??? ... I'll say again nothing you've added in that disgraceful rant can defend your Tory attacks with regards to Grenfell ... I know it , other members know it and even you know it ... Death never makes for pretty political point scoring

When you say people are "sick of my hate filled posts" does that include those who agreed with me when I first mentioned your obvious attempts at anti-Tory point scoring ???

[Bulletguy]

antony1969 - 2018-07-03 7:34 PM

 

Bulletguy - 2018-07-03 5:39 PM

 

antony1969 - 2018-07-03 3:27 PM

 

It's been obvious from day one Grenfell has been a very useful Tory bashing tool for you and John/Peter/James to use and nothing else wether the Tories deserve to be bashed or not ... It's a shame as those who are genuinely concerned on here have Prolly been put off posting because of the political nonsense ...

Looking at both threads the only "bashing" i've seen has come from you with your disparaging derogatory quite nasty comments about refugee residents, 'desperate politicising by the left to sabotage an accidental fire', 'people should be damn grateful to live rent free in such a place and even more so considering the countries some of those living in the block originally came from', 'holding candlelit vigils daring not to say Islamic terrorist when they continue to blow our children up', and more waffle of your usual xenophobic and Muslim hatred. Yes that certainly 'puts people off' for sure as they are sick of your hate filled posts.

 

I notice you didn't attempt to defend the indefensible. It would have been quite stupid to try. It's like this. You employ a team of roofers but don't equip them with PPE or ensure their safety....and the building is unsafe. Huge accident occurs resulting in a fatality or serious injury (just one is one too many). You cannot then say "but i'm a Tory and also voted Brexit so I cannot be held to account or charged with any offence/s.......they are all left wing so it's their fault, nothing to do with me."

 

I'm not sure why you were so concerned about the origin or nationality of the Grenfell residents.....all were human beings as far as i'm concerned, 72 of whom lost their lives in a horrendous fire that was quite possibly avoidable. The warnings had been there from the residents, but they were ignored.

 

Are you directly quoting me on those things youve mentioned?

Yes.

[antony1969]

Bulletguy - 2018-07-04 8:56 AM

 

antony1969 - 2018-07-03 7:34 PM

 

Bulletguy - 2018-07-03 5:39 PM

 

antony1969 - 2018-07-03 3:27 PM

 

It's been obvious from day one Grenfell has been a very useful Tory bashing tool for you and John/Peter/James to use and nothing else wether the Tories deserve to be bashed or not ... It's a shame as those who are genuinely concerned on here have Prolly been put off posting because of the political nonsense ...

Looking at both threads the only "bashing" i've seen has come from you with your disparaging derogatory quite nasty comments about refugee residents, 'desperate politicising by the left to sabotage an accidental fire', 'people should be damn grateful to live rent free in such a place and even more so considering the countries some of those living in the block originally came from', 'holding candlelit vigils daring not to say Islamic terrorist when they continue to blow our children up', and more waffle of your usual xenophobic and Muslim hatred. Yes that certainly 'puts people off' for sure as they are sick of your hate filled posts.

 

I notice you didn't attempt to defend the indefensible. It would have been quite stupid to try. It's like this. You employ a team of roofers but don't equip them with PPE or ensure their safety....and the building is unsafe. Huge accident occurs resulting in a fatality or serious injury (just one is one too many). You cannot then say "but i'm a Tory and also voted Brexit so I cannot be held to account or charged with any offence/s.......they are all left wing so it's their fault, nothing to do with me."

 

I'm not sure why you were so concerned about the origin or nationality of the Grenfell residents.....all were human beings as far as i'm concerned, 72 of whom lost their lives in a horrendous fire that was quite possibly avoidable. The warnings had been there from the residents, but they were ignored.

 

Are you directly quoting me on those things youve mentioned?

Yes.

 

Show me

[John52]

pelmetman - 2018-07-03 5:49 PM

 

John52 - 2018-07-03 1:51 PM

 

Brian Kirby - 2018-07-03 12:38 PM

The other factors, by which I assume you mean the fire doors .

 

Why would you assume I meant the fire doors - and not the removal of fire hoses from the landings for example?

 

You mean like those removed from a tower block in "Labour" run Birmingham? >:-) ........

 

The day after Grenfell 8-) 8-) 8-) ..........

 

https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/emergency-fire-hoses-removed-birmingham-13212408

 

It's time to rename that moral high ground you and Bullet are on as......"Hypocrite Hill" (lol) (lol) (lol) (lol) (lol) ............

 

 

No I don't mean fire doors. I mean the things the Royal Tory Borough and their hangers on don't want to talk about - like fire hoses removed from landings >:-(

[Bulletguy]

antony1969 - 2018-07-04 9:39 AM

 

Bulletguy - 2018-07-04 8:56 AM

 

antony1969 - 2018-07-03 7:34 PM

 

Bulletguy - 2018-07-03 5:39 PM

 

antony1969 - 2018-07-03 3:27 PM

 

It's been obvious from day one Grenfell has been a very useful Tory bashing tool for you and John/Peter/James to use and nothing else wether the Tories deserve to be bashed or not ... It's a shame as those who are genuinely concerned on here have Prolly been put off posting because of the political nonsense ...

Looking at both threads the only "bashing" i've seen has come from you with your disparaging derogatory quite nasty comments about refugee residents, 'desperate politicising by the left to sabotage an accidental fire', 'people should be damn grateful to live rent free in such a place and even more so considering the countries some of those living in the block originally came from', 'holding candlelit vigils daring not to say Islamic terrorist when they continue to blow our children up', and more waffle of your usual xenophobic and Muslim hatred. Yes that certainly 'puts people off' for sure as they are sick of your hate filled posts.

 

I notice you didn't attempt to defend the indefensible. It would have been quite stupid to try. It's like this. You employ a team of roofers but don't equip them with PPE or ensure their safety....and the building is unsafe. Huge accident occurs resulting in a fatality or serious injury (just one is one too many). You cannot then say "but i'm a Tory and also voted Brexit so I cannot be held to account or charged with any offence/s.......they are all left wing so it's their fault, nothing to do with me."

 

I'm not sure why you were so concerned about the origin or nationality of the Grenfell residents.....all were human beings as far as i'm concerned, 72 of whom lost their lives in a horrendous fire that was quite possibly avoidable. The warnings had been there from the residents, but they were ignored.

 

Are you directly quoting me on those things youve mentioned?

Yes.

 

Show me

They are from your posts in the Grenfell thread. Look for them yourself.

[antony1969]

Bulletguy - 2018-07-04 9:58 AM

 

antony1969 - 2018-07-04 9:39 AM

 

Bulletguy - 2018-07-04 8:56 AM

 

antony1969 - 2018-07-03 7:34 PM

 

Bulletguy - 2018-07-03 5:39 PM

 

antony1969 - 2018-07-03 3:27 PM

 

It's been obvious from day one Grenfell has been a very useful Tory bashing tool for you and John/Peter/James to use and nothing else wether the Tories deserve to be bashed or not ... It's a shame as those who are genuinely concerned on here have Prolly been put off posting because of the political nonsense ...

Looking at both threads the only "bashing" i've seen has come from you with your disparaging derogatory quite nasty comments about refugee residents, 'desperate politicising by the left to sabotage an accidental fire', 'people should be damn grateful to live rent free in such a place and even more so considering the countries some of those living in the block originally came from', 'holding candlelit vigils daring not to say Islamic terrorist when they continue to blow our children up', and more waffle of your usual xenophobic and Muslim hatred. Yes that certainly 'puts people off' for sure as they are sick of your hate filled posts.

 

I notice you didn't attempt to defend the indefensible. It would have been quite stupid to try. It's like this. You employ a team of roofers but don't equip them with PPE or ensure their safety....and the building is unsafe. Huge accident occurs resulting in a fatality or serious injury (just one is one too many). You cannot then say "but i'm a Tory and also voted Brexit so I cannot be held to account or charged with any offence/s.......they are all left wing so it's their fault, nothing to do with me."

 

I'm not sure why you were so concerned about the origin or nationality of the Grenfell residents.....all were human beings as far as i'm concerned, 72 of whom lost their lives in a horrendous fire that was quite possibly avoidable. The warnings had been there from the residents, but they were ignored.

 

Are you directly quoting me on those things youve mentioned?

Yes.

 

Show me

They are from your posts in the Grenfell thread. Look for them yourself.

 

I think your lying again

[Bulletguy]

antony1969 - 2018-07-04 11:50 AM

 

Bulletguy - 2018-07-04 9:58 AM

 

antony1969 - 2018-07-04 9:39 AM

 

Bulletguy - 2018-07-04 8:56 AM

 

antony1969 - 2018-07-03 7:34 PM

 

Bulletguy - 2018-07-03 5:39 PM

 

antony1969 - 2018-07-03 3:27 PM

 

It's been obvious from day one Grenfell has been a very useful Tory bashing tool for you and John/Peter/James to use and nothing else wether the Tories deserve to be bashed or not ... It's a shame as those who are genuinely concerned on here have Prolly been put off posting because of the political nonsense ...

Looking at both threads the only "bashing" i've seen has come from you with your disparaging derogatory quite nasty comments about refugee residents, 'desperate politicising by the left to sabotage an accidental fire', 'people should be damn grateful to live rent free in such a place and even more so considering the countries some of those living in the block originally came from', 'holding candlelit vigils daring not to say Islamic terrorist when they continue to blow our children up', and more waffle of your usual xenophobic and Muslim hatred. Yes that certainly 'puts people off' for sure as they are sick of your hate filled posts.

 

I notice you didn't attempt to defend the indefensible. It would have been quite stupid to try. It's like this. You employ a team of roofers but don't equip them with PPE or ensure their safety....and the building is unsafe. Huge accident occurs resulting in a fatality or serious injury (just one is one too many). You cannot then say "but i'm a Tory and also voted Brexit so I cannot be held to account or charged with any offence/s.......they are all left wing so it's their fault, nothing to do with me."

 

I'm not sure why you were so concerned about the origin or nationality of the Grenfell residents.....all were human beings as far as i'm concerned, 72 of whom lost their lives in a horrendous fire that was quite possibly avoidable. The warnings had been there from the residents, but they were ignored.

 

Are you directly quoting me on those things youve mentioned?

Yes.

 

Show me

They are from your posts in the Grenfell thread. Look for them yourself.

 

I think your lying again

I know (not think) you are too afraid to look. There's only eight pages so hardly needs much effort and will occupy your mind for a while.

[antony1969]

Bulletguy - 2018-07-04 12:18 PM

 

antony1969 - 2018-07-04 11:50 AM

 

Bulletguy - 2018-07-04 9:58 AM

 

antony1969 - 2018-07-04 9:39 AM

 

Bulletguy - 2018-07-04 8:56 AM

 

antony1969 - 2018-07-03 7:34 PM

 

Bulletguy - 2018-07-03 5:39 PM

 

antony1969 - 2018-07-03 3:27 PM

 

It's been obvious from day one Grenfell has been a very useful Tory bashing tool for you and John/Peter/James to use and nothing else wether the Tories deserve to be bashed or not ... It's a shame as those who are genuinely concerned on here have Prolly been put off posting because of the political nonsense ...

Looking at both threads the only "bashing" i've seen has come from you with your disparaging derogatory quite nasty comments about refugee residents, 'desperate politicising by the left to sabotage an accidental fire', 'people should be damn grateful to live rent free in such a place and even more so considering the countries some of those living in the block originally came from', 'holding candlelit vigils daring not to say Islamic terrorist when they continue to blow our children up', and more waffle of your usual xenophobic and Muslim hatred. Yes that certainly 'puts people off' for sure as they are sick of your hate filled posts.

 

I notice you didn't attempt to defend the indefensible. It would have been quite stupid to try. It's like this. You employ a team of roofers but don't equip them with PPE or ensure their safety....and the building is unsafe. Huge accident occurs resulting in a fatality or serious injury (just one is one too many). You cannot then say "but i'm a Tory and also voted Brexit so I cannot be held to account or charged with any offence/s.......they are all left wing so it's their fault, nothing to do with me."

 

I'm not sure why you were so concerned about the origin or nationality of the Grenfell residents.....all were human beings as far as i'm concerned, 72 of whom lost their lives in a horrendous fire that was quite possibly avoidable. The warnings had been there from the residents, but they were ignored.

 

Are you directly quoting me on those things youve mentioned?

Yes.

 

Show me

They are from your posts in the Grenfell thread. Look for them yourself.

 

I think your lying again

I know (not think) you are too afraid to look. There's only eight pages so hardly needs much effort and will occupy your mind for a while.

 

You "know" I'm "too afraid to Look" ... Lordy ... I thought you'd gone all Disney on this one as it is ... Chattetbox's very own Spielberg

[Brian Kirby]

John52 - 2018-07-03 1:51 PM

 

Brian Kirby - 2018-07-03 12:38 PM

The other factors, by which I assume you mean the fire doors .

 

Why would you assume I meant the fire doors - and not the removal of fire hoses from the landings for example?

Because the defective fire doors would have contributed to the spread of the fire onto the landings, making escape from upper floors more difficult of impossible, once they failed.

 

I wasn't aware of the missing fire hose reels, and cannot find a reference to this, but if true it may have had an impact. Do you have one?

 

Without knowing what these hoses actually were, what instructions were given to residents as to their use, and how they were fed, it is not possible to comment. I am aware of reports that the building had a dry riser, and that dry risers are the fire brigades' favoured way of getting substantial quantities of water up high buildings. In effect, they replace the need to run fire hoses up the building. The brigade connect to them at the base, and again on the floor/s where the water is required. Fire hose reels are usually quite small diameter, intended for use only on minor fires. I don't know what stage the fire had reached in the kitchen before it was detected by the flat occupant, or what the occupant then did, apart from getting out (the first advice to anyone discovering a fire) and, presumably, raising the alarm. But, whatever, once the fire had got into the cladding, all else is largely irrelevant, because the fire then spread via the exterior of the building, and not via the interior where items such as fire doors or fire hoses were located.

 

I do not defend or condemn RBKC in respect of their management of their property, and am very uneasy about the Tenant Management Organisation which, on present evidence, seems to have lacked essential technical and professional guidance from RBKC, leaving it as an accident waiting to happen. I am hoping the enquiry will clarify the extent of the TMO's involvement in the refurbishment and general management of the building, and the impact of that on the way the fire spread.

[Bulletguy]

 

This report from the Telegraph is pretty detailed and well illustrated with a timeline. Staggering how quickly the entire building was engulfed with LFB Commissioner commenting, “I have never seen a building where the whole of it was on fire. Nobody has ever seen that. It was incredible. It was alien to anything I had ever seen.”

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/06/04/grenfell-tower-inquiry-hear-evidence-cause-fire-survivors-hailthe/

[Brian Kirby]

I think there is a move to try to scapegoat the fire brigade, which I think completely unreasonable.

 

They will have arrived to deal with a flat fire in a tower block. There have been numerous such fires before, and they are usually quickly extinguished. The fire brigade will have been unaware of the risk presented by the cladding, so will have stuck to their "training manual" standard approach. Deal with the fire, and evaluate the need for evacuation of adjoining flats. This they did, and quickly extinguished the fire.

 

Only then was it reported that the outside of the building was on fire, something of which the firemen inside the building were apparently unaware.

 

There will have been considerable confusion as to what was, actually happening, as all their training and experience will have been on the basis that the external walls cannot burn, plus, I would suspect, an expectation that the newly completed refurbishment works would have brought the building up to the highest achievable standard, not reduced it to a flammable death trap.

 

To evacuate the building, especially as the fire alarms were apparently non-functioning (which is unforgivable), would have necessitated knocking up the occupants of every occupied flat, which the brigade will not have geared up for, in addition to trying to suppress the fire - which was their first objective. Deal with the fire to eliminate the risk.

 

So, there was a dangerous conflict between fighting the fire, and understanding that the exterior of the whole block was (illegally) flammable, and that they should therefore prioritise evacuation over fire fighting.

 

The problem with evacuation is that it takes time (especially as some residents would inevitably be slow to respond, especially after midnight) to get large numbers of people down a single staircase through over 20 floors.

 

Had the cladding complied with the regulations, that disastrous confusion would not have arisen, as the fire would not have raced up the outside, so by-passing and negating all the other measures against fire spread (albeit some were sub-standard) that the building possessed.

[Guest pelmetman]

John52 - 2018-07-04 9:43 AM

 

pelmetman - 2018-07-03 5:49 PM

 

John52 - 2018-07-03 1:51 PM

 

Brian Kirby - 2018-07-03 12:38 PM

The other factors, by which I assume you mean the fire doors .

 

Why would you assume I meant the fire doors - and not the removal of fire hoses from the landings for example?

 

You mean like those removed from a tower block in "Labour" run Birmingham? >:-) ........

 

The day after Grenfell 8-) 8-) 8-) ..........

 

https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/emergency-fire-hoses-removed-birmingham-13212408

 

It's time to rename that moral high ground you and Bullet are on as......"Hypocrite Hill" (lol) (lol) (lol) (lol) (lol) ............

 

 

No I don't mean fire doors. I mean the things the Royal Tory Borough and their hangers on don't want to talk about - like fire hoses removed from landings >:-(

 

Don't you read links from local Birmingham papers who's councils are run by Labour ?? >:-) .........

 

Here's a little ditty from those in that city :D ........

 

"Furious residents in a 19-storey tower block in Small Heath yelled “You’re killing us!” as the council REMOVED emergency fire hoses - just a day after London’s Grenfell Tower blaze."

 

.......That's hardly sounds very bang on caring Labour does it? >:-) ..........