Will health & safety prove to be the ultimate culprit for the deaths at Grenfell?.........

[John52]

antony1969 - 2018-06-13 12:20 PM

 

John52 - 2018-06-13 11:54 AM

 

pelmetman - 2018-06-13 10:06 AM

 

I've been skint.......never felt the need to turn to crime *-) ........

 

But if I ever do, I know can rely on folk like you to tell me its not my fault >:-) ..........

 

 

What if you had seen others getting 6 figure sums for fake compensation claims?

Long prison sentences should be seen as a last resort.

Not a substitute for simple basic checks before paying out 6 figure compensation claims.

 

Sounds like its all the fault of those nasty people who should have made the checks and not all those foreign sounding types that actually committed the frauds ... Next time I get done by those tax types I can say well its not my fault you should have checked my returns

 

I didn't say that did I?

But if they had made basic simple checks - like whether the flat being claimed for ever existed - this crime would not have happened, and others wouldn't have been encouraged to do the same.

 

Can't you see that would have been better than putting them in prison.?

 

Prevention is better than cure, and prison isn't even that as many come out worse than when they went in. :-(

[John52]

pelmetman - 2018-06-13 3:43 PM

So its my fault I have morals eh? *-) ..........

I didn't say that did I?

 

pelmetman - 2018-06-13 3:43 PM

Is it any wonder we have revolving doors on our prisons with excuse merchants like you 8-) .........

Is it any wonder we have revolving doors on our prisons when the Royal Tory Boroughs lack of basic simple checks before paying out 6 figure sums encourages people to make false claims?

 

pelmetman - 2018-06-13 3:43 PM

No doubt if you ever get burgled you'll apologise for being the victim? >:-) ...........

I wouldn't go out and leave my door unlocked and £100,000+ visible through the window like the Royal Tory Borough has effectively done. And i say again the Royal Tory Borough is not the victim because it wasn't their money. It was our money taken from poorer boroughs and given to the Royal Tory Borough by Theresa May. We are victims of the Royal Tory Borough's carelessness. - You and Me both. But at least the Royal Tory Borough's carelessness has only cost us money, not our lives like many :-(

[John52]

Just watched an interesting documentary on Grenfell that was broadcast on BBC2 9-10pm last night.

Shows £75 million houses next to people juggling 3 jobs and still having to go to foodbanks.

They never wanted the cladding, and continually warned about danger of fire, but Tory council never listened to poor people, they just wanted them out so they could sell the land they were living on at huge profit.

If Tory council had listened to poor people, Grenfell wouldn't have happened. :-(

[Guest pelmetman]

John52 - 2018-06-14 12:07 PM

 

pelmetman - 2018-06-13 3:43 PM

So its my fault I have morals eh? *-) ..........

I didn't say that did I?

 

pelmetman - 2018-06-13 3:43 PM

Is it any wonder we have revolving doors on our prisons with excuse merchants like you 8-) .........

Is it any wonder we have revolving doors on our prisons when the Royal Tory Boroughs lack of basic simple checks before paying out 6 figure sums encourages people to make false claims?

 

pelmetman - 2018-06-13 3:43 PM

No doubt if you ever get burgled you'll apologise for being the victim? >:-) ...........

I wouldn't go out and leave my door unlocked and £100,000+ visible through the window like the Royal Tory Borough has effectively done. And i say again the Royal Tory Borough is not the victim because it wasn't their money. It was our money taken from poorer boroughs and given to the Royal Tory Borough by Theresa May. We are victims of the Royal Tory Borough's carelessness. - You and Me both. But at least the Royal Tory Borough's carelessness has only cost us money, not our lives like many :-(

 

Still making excuses for the criminals eh? *-) .........

 

 

[Guest pelmetman]

John52 - 2018-06-14 5:50 PM

 

Just watched an interesting documentary on Grenfell that was broadcast on BBC2 9-10pm last night.

Shows £75 million houses next to people juggling 3 jobs and still having to go to foodbanks.

They never wanted the cladding, and continually warned about danger of fire, but Tory council never listened to poor people, they just wanted them out so they could sell the land they were living on at huge profit.

If Tory council had listened to poor people, Grenfell wouldn't have happened. :-(

 

I wonder whether the chattering classes would be making documentaries if the block of flats was in Hull and filled with indigenous Brits? :-| ........

 

 

[John52]

pelmetman - 2018-06-14 6:03 PM

I wonder whether the chattering classes would be making documentaries if the block of flats was in Hull and filled with indigenous Brits? :-| ........

 

 

Doubt it because the residents were listened to and there was no fire.

Documentary showed their being more jobs than workers after the war.

The Government places adverts in the Caribbean urging immigrants to come to Britain.

Now more people than jobs or homes.

Same old Tory divide and rule

Just like they tackle illegal immigration in a half - hearted way and blame it on the EU.

[John52]

pelmetman - 2018-06-14 6:00 PM

 

Still making excuses for the criminals eh? *-) .........

 

 

Nope.

Making excuses for the criminal negligence of the Royal Tory Borough is not for me .

[Guest pelmetman]

John52 - 2018-06-14 6:35 PM

 

Now more people than jobs or homes.

 

Yet you would let even more in *-) ..........

 

 

[Guest pelmetman]

John52 - 2018-06-14 6:39 PM

 

pelmetman - 2018-06-14 6:00 PM

 

Still making excuses for the criminals eh? *-) .........

 

 

Nope.

Making excuses for the criminal negligence of the Royal Tory Borough is not for me .

 

Correct.......You'd rather make excuses for the real criminals >:-) .........

 

 

[Bulletguy]

pelmetman - 2018-06-14 6:58 PM

 

John52 - 2018-06-14 6:39 PM

 

pelmetman - 2018-06-14 6:00 PM

 

Still making excuses for the criminals eh? *-) .........

 

 

Nope.

Making excuses for the criminal negligence of the Royal Tory Borough is not for me .

 

Correct.......You'd rather make excuses for the real criminals >:-) .........

How do you intend to excuse criminal negligence and corporate manslaughter which is just one step down from murder? The offence of manslaughter by gross negligence comes with a starting point of 12 years and can carry a life sentence if offenders are found to have a “very high” level of culpability. Possible charges to be brought include misconduct in public office, manslaughter, corporate manslaughter and breaches of fire safety regulation.

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/grenfell-tower-alison-saunders-director-of-public-prosecution-manslaughter-gross-negligence-a7881466.html

[Guest pelmetman]

Bulletguy - 2018-06-14 7:55 PM

 

pelmetman - 2018-06-14 6:58 PM

 

John52 - 2018-06-14 6:39 PM

 

pelmetman - 2018-06-14 6:00 PM

 

Still making excuses for the criminals eh? *-) .........

 

 

Nope.

Making excuses for the criminal negligence of the Royal Tory Borough is not for me .

 

Correct.......You'd rather make excuses for the real criminals >:-) .........

How do you intend to excuse criminal negligence and corporate manslaughter which is just one step down from murder? The offence of manslaughter by gross negligence comes with a starting point of 12 years and can carry a life sentence if offenders are found to have a “very high” level of culpability. Possible charges to be brought include misconduct in public office, manslaughter, corporate manslaughter and breaches of fire safety regulation.

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/grenfell-tower-alison-saunders-director-of-public-prosecution-manslaughter-gross-negligence-a7881466.html

 

I dont.......Making excuses for criminals is Peter's job >:-) ........

 

 

 

 

[John52]

pelmetman - 2018-06-14 6:58 PM

 

John52 - 2018-06-14 6:39 PM

 

pelmetman - 2018-06-14 6:00 PM

 

Still making excuses for the criminals eh? *-) .........

 

 

Nope.

Making excuses for the criminal negligence of the Royal Tory Borough is not for me .

 

Correct.......You'd rather make excuses for the real criminals >:-) .........

 

 

And who are your real criminals?

The homeless people reliant on foodbanks who made a false claim to get a flat?

Or the careless reckless negligent ones who caused the Grenfell Tower fire - and didn't make basic checks that would have instantly weeded out the false claims?

[Brian Kirby]

John52 - 2018-06-03 7:09 AM

 

Brian Kirby - 2018-06-02 7:31 PM

use 70 deaths to make party political capital.

 

You are doing that yourself but don't seem to realise it.

The Royal Borough has been Tory continuously since 1964 - before Grenfell Tower got on to the drawing board.

So may I ask you the same question I asked Antony because it seems he can't answer it.

How can we comment on Grenfell Tower without making party political capital?

Been away, so a belated reply. There are politics, and Politics. You are right: all comment is, to some extent, political. However, much of your commentary seems to me to arise through an almost paranoid aversion to anything that can be attributed to the political right wing, meaning it becomes Political (i.e. party political). There is, as yet, no evidence that party politics played any part in the selection of the fatally combustible cladding. There seems to be growing suspicion that changes to the regulations made in 2007, to permit the use of materials of limited combustibility in certain cases lieu of incombustible materials, plus some changes to the methodology for testing fire performance, may underlie the widespread use of such combustible claddings.

 

However, the fact that some 300 odd tower blocks around the country have been so clad does seem to me to suggest that the adoption of such materials cannot reasonably be attributed to some Tory ploy against the proles. I can't yet find the source of the change to the regulations, although the actual regulation as I quoted it previously seems to have remained unaltered. So, it seems that the change must lie within the "deemed to satisfy provisions" (the guidance section) and not within the wording of the actual regulation.

 

It seems that a misinterpretation of the intent of the regulations resulted some years back, and was then adopted on numerous buildings. I assume this was widely canvassed by the sellers of the cladding and insulation materials to those responsible for specifying, as being a cost effective way of complying with regulations. I also assume that the specifiers were similarly convinced by these claims, and will have submitted their proposals for approval by the relevant authorities, and obtained the statutorily required approvals before works proceeded. It seems to me completely improbable that all concerned (manufacturers, specifiers, and approving authorities) would just have rolled over on the issue of fire resistances of these materials, and accepted their use, on the basis that "Fred of Chipping Sodbury" got approval, so everyone else must follow suit without further question.

 

I retired in 2005, so I don't have any direct experience of what happened in 2007 and after, but it certainly didn't work that way before 2005! The answer to any such pleading would have been a crisp and negative direction to return forthwith to the drawing board! :-D

[Bulletguy]

 

What are your thoughts on successful charges of manslaughter and corporate manslaughter being brought Brian? From the CPS article i linked a few posts up it seems they will be making charges though my fear is it turning into another Hillsborough fiasco with people waiting years to see justice done.

[John52]

Brian Kirby - 2018-06-18 1:04 PM

 

John52 - 2018-06-03 7:09 AM

 

Brian Kirby - 2018-06-02 7:31 PM

use 70 deaths to make party political capital.

 

You are doing that yourself but don't seem to realise it.

The Royal Borough has been Tory continuously since 1964 - before Grenfell Tower got on to the drawing board.

So may I ask you the same question I asked Antony because it seems he can't answer it.

How can we comment on Grenfell Tower without making party political capital?

Been away, so a belated reply. There are politics, and Politics. You are right: all comment is, to some extent, political. However, much of your commentary seems to me to arise through an almost paranoid aversion to anything that can be attributed to the political right wing, meaning it becomes Political (i.e. party political). There is, as yet, no evidence that party politics played any part in the selection of the fatally combustible cladding. There seems to be growing suspicion that changes to the regulations made in 2007, to permit the use of materials of limited combustibility in certain cases lieu of incombustible materials, plus some changes to the methodology for testing fire performance, may underlie the widespread use of such combustible claddings.

 

However, the fact that some 300 odd tower blocks around the country have been so clad does seem to me to suggest that the adoption of such materials cannot reasonably be attributed to some Tory ploy against the proles. I can't yet find the source of the change to the regulations, although the actual regulation as I quoted it previously seems to have remained unaltered. So, it seems that the change must lie within the "deemed to satisfy provisions" (the guidance section) and not within the wording of the actual regulation.

 

It seems that a misinterpretation of the intent of the regulations resulted some years back, and was then adopted on numerous buildings. I assume this was widely canvassed by the sellers of the cladding and insulation materials to those responsible for specifying, as being a cost effective way of complying with regulations. I also assume that the specifiers were similarly convinced by these claims, and will have submitted their proposals for approval by the relevant authorities, and obtained the statutorily required approvals before works proceeded. It seems to me completely improbable that all concerned (manufacturers, specifiers, and approving authorities) would just have rolled over on the issue of fire resistances of these materials, and accepted their use, on the basis that "Fred of Chipping Sodbury" got approval, so everyone else must follow suit without further question.

 

I retired in 2005, so I don't have any direct experience of what happened in 2007 and after, but it certainly didn't work that way before 2005! The answer to any such pleading would have been a crisp and negative direction to return forthwith to the drawing board! :-D

Thanks for the reply

If it was just the cladding I would agree with you

But the cladding was just one of the failings that combined to create the Grenfell tragedy.

[John52]

Bulletguy - 2018-06-18 1:49 PM

 

my fear is it turning into another Hillsborough fiasco with people waiting years to see justice done.

 

I think that very likely unless we get a Corbyn Government.

So I'm sure there will be a renewed smear campaign to put the skids under him >:-)

[antony1969]

John52 - 2018-06-19 7:00 AM

 

Bulletguy - 2018-06-18 1:49 PM

 

my fear is it turning into another Hillsborough fiasco with people waiting years to see justice done.

 

I think that very likely unless we get a Corbyn Government.

So I'm sure there will be a renewed smear campaign to put the skids under him >:-)

 

Whatever the outcome of the inquiry it wont be enough for some you can be certain of that ... When you have comments like "unless we get a Corbyn Government" and others screaming for Theresa May to be charged with crimes against humanity the hidden agendas and using Grenfell as a tool are obvious for all to see ... We have one or two members preaching about British law on other threads its a shame they dont let British law run its course in this case but then again that wouldnt suit their true agendas and false concern for Grenfell victims

[Guest pelmetman]

John52 - 2018-06-19 7:00 AM

 

Bulletguy - 2018-06-18 1:49 PM

 

my fear is it turning into another Hillsborough fiasco with people waiting years to see justice done.

 

I think that very likely unless we get a Corbyn Government.

So I'm sure there will be a renewed smear campaign to put the skids under him >:-)

 

Corbyn supplies his own skids ;-) .......

 

Naz Shah and Diana Abbott are just one pair of a whole closet full >:-) .........

 

 

 

 

[John52]

antony1969 - 2018-06-19 7:52 AM

its a shame they dont let British law run its course in this case but then again that wouldnt suit their true agendas

like Hillsborough - would that suit your true agenda?

antony1969 - 2018-06-19 7:52 AM false concern for Grenfell victims

Thats a horrible thing to say about anybody. Do you have any evidence?

[John52]

pelmetman - 2018-06-19 8:27 AM

 

John52 - 2018-06-19 7:00 AM

 

Bulletguy - 2018-06-18 1:49 PM

 

my fear is it turning into another Hillsborough fiasco with people waiting years to see justice done.

 

I think that very likely unless we get a Corbyn Government.

So I'm sure there will be a renewed smear campaign to put the skids under him >:-)

 

Corbyn supplies his own skids ;-) .......

 

Naz Shah and Diana Abbott are just one pair of a whole closet full >:-) .........

 

 

 

 

Perhaps, but they are pretty insignificant compared to Grenfell etc

[antony1969]

John52 - 2018-06-19 9:15 AM

 

antony1969 - 2018-06-19 7:52 AM

its a shame they dont let British law run its course in this case but then again that wouldnt suit their true agendas

like Hillsborough - would that suit your true agenda?

antony1969 - 2018-06-19 7:52 AM false concern for Grenfell victims

Thats a horrible thing to say about anybody. Do you have any evidence?

 

I dont have an agenda Ive already said that Grenfell isn't top of my list for concern but those who preach about British justice on one subject cant have it differently on another can they ??? ... The inquiry must run its course and at the end when it hasn't blamed the Tories for everything then they can cry over British justice

[Guest pelmetman]

John52 - 2018-06-19 9:17 AM

 

pelmetman - 2018-06-19 8:27 AM

 

John52 - 2018-06-19 7:00 AM

 

Bulletguy - 2018-06-18 1:49 PM

 

my fear is it turning into another Hillsborough fiasco with people waiting years to see justice done.

 

I think that very likely unless we get a Corbyn Government.

So I'm sure there will be a renewed smear campaign to put the skids under him >:-)

 

Corbyn supplies his own skids ;-) .......

 

Naz Shah and Diana Abbott are just one pair of a whole closet full >:-) .........

 

 

 

 

Perhaps, but they are pretty insignificant compared to Grenfell etc

 

Much like Grenfell is to the rest of the UK.......It's not our first disaster.....and I doubt it'll be our last :-| ........

 

 

[Bulletguy]

antony1969 - 2018-06-19 7:52 AM

 

John52 - 2018-06-19 7:00 AM

 

Bulletguy - 2018-06-18 1:49 PM

 

my fear is it turning into another Hillsborough fiasco with people waiting years to see justice done.

 

I think that very likely unless we get a Corbyn Government.

So I'm sure there will be a renewed smear campaign to put the skids under him >:-)

 

Whatever the outcome of the inquiry it wont be enough for some you can be certain of that ... When you have comments like "unless we get a Corbyn Government" and others screaming for Theresa May to be charged with crimes against humanity the hidden agendas and using Grenfell as a tool are obvious for all to see ... We have one or two members preaching about British law on other threads.....

No politician is above the law including May so that's irrelevant and when Saunders (CPS) say's 'there are a whole raft of offences against both individuals and possibly companies that we could be looking at depending what the evidence shows', including manslaughter by gross negligence and corporate manslaughter. These are extremely serious offences warranting lengthy custodial sentences.

 

Everyone knows the fiasco Hillsborough became, the long drawn out battle by senior rank police officers desperate to avoid justice, the understandable bitterness and anger of Liverpool fans who were untruthfully portrayed by the gutter press as 'drunken louts' etc. My hope is lessons were learned from that and it doesn't end up the same way as it took Liverpool years of fighting for justice.

 

.....its a shame they dont let British law run its course in this case but then again that wouldnt suit their true agendas and false concern for Grenfell victims.

I believe in due process but sometimes the wheels of justice run painfully slow. As regards 'false concern for the victims', what evidence do you have of that? Whilst the vast majority of comments re. Grenfell have been informative and with empathy, i agree there have been some contemptuous and derogatory comments devoid of basic human decency but thankfully they form an extremely tiny minority.

[antony1969]

Bulletguy - 2018-06-19 11:12 AM

 

antony1969 - 2018-06-19 7:52 AM

 

John52 - 2018-06-19 7:00 AM

 

Bulletguy - 2018-06-18 1:49 PM

 

my fear is it turning into another Hillsborough fiasco with people waiting years to see justice done.

 

I think that very likely unless we get a Corbyn Government.

So I'm sure there will be a renewed smear campaign to put the skids under him >:-)

 

Whatever the outcome of the inquiry it wont be enough for some you can be certain of that ... When you have comments like "unless we get a Corbyn Government" and others screaming for Theresa May to be charged with crimes against humanity the hidden agendas and using Grenfell as a tool are obvious for all to see ... We have one or two members preaching about British law on other threads.....

No politician is above the law including May so that's irrelevant and when Saunders (CPS) say's 'there are a whole raft of offences against both individuals and possibly companies that we could be looking at depending what the evidence shows', including manslaughter by gross negligence and corporate manslaughter. These are extremely serious offences warranting lengthy custodial sentences.

 

Everyone knows the fiasco Hillsborough became, the long drawn out battle by senior rank police officers desperate to avoid justice, the understandable bitterness and anger of Liverpool fans who were untruthfully portrayed by the gutter press as 'drunken louts' etc. My hope is lessons were learned from that and it doesn't end up the same way as it took Liverpool years of fighting for justice.

 

.....its a shame they dont let British law run its course in this case but then again that wouldnt suit their true agendas and false concern for Grenfell victims.

I believe in due process but sometimes the wheels of justice run painfully slow. As regards 'false concern for the victims', what evidence do you have of that? Whilst the vast majority of comments re. Grenfell have been informative and with empathy, i agree there have been some contemptuous and derogatory comments devoid of basic human decency but thankfully they form an extremely tiny minority.

 

You believe in due process but want Theresa May up now for "crimes against humanity" ... Yep youve got a real valid and credible point ... As usual

[John52]

antony1969 - 2018-06-19 9:27 AM

. The inquiry must run its course and at the end when it hasn't blamed the Tories....

So you realise that Teresa May appointing Establishment stooges to run it means its findings are a foregone conclusion?