Stays in Schengen area post Brexit

[Guest pelmetman]

Bulletguy - 2018-12-10 5:14 PM

 

pelmetman - 2018-12-10 4:42 PM

 

Bulletguy - 2018-12-10 3:35 PM

 

pelmetman - 2018-12-10 11:11 AM

 

colin - 2018-12-10 9:41 AM

 

pelmetman - 2018-12-10 9:24 AM

 

TheFrenchConnection - 2018-12-09 9:34 PM

 

Of course you could always be like Pelmetman and stick your head firmly in the sand. However wiser councils might consider that there will certainly be changes when UK citizens are no longer EU citizens. I have a Carte de Séjour which specifically states that I have the right to 'sejour permenant' in France but am still concerned about my ability to move around the Shengen zone post-Brexit - as are all of use who are actually concerned about legality.

As I said in a post in a previous thread waving a blue passport won't work in an age of ANPR cameras and electronic passport checks.

Unfortunately no one has the faintest idea of what will actually happen - especially Brexiteers

 

Being out of the country on 29 March doesn't seem like a good idea though - we plan to be safely home in France a couple of weeks beforehand despite our French registration camouflage.

 

Once you cross the ditch how often do you have your passport checked? ;-) ..........and how do they know I've not been in Spain were my padron allows me to stay for more than 6 months? :-| ........

 

 

 

 

 

Your Padron is only valid for 90 days.

 

Correct ;-) ........But the benefits aren't :D .......

 

https://www.calp.es/en/content/sign-padron-or-renew-your-entry

 

"Calp, the town [/b]you have chose to live in,[/b] ***needs you***. Sign on to the Padron! or renew your entry.

 

 

WHAT IS THE PADRON?

It’s the administrative record of all residents of the town. Each person that lives in Spain is obliged to sign on to the padron in the town where they habitually live.

 

It is complying with a legal obligation and allows you to exercise and demand your rights.

The larger the numbers on the padron, the greater the economic help the Town Hall receives to better provide local services. With a lower number of people on the padron, there is a risk to the provision and quality of such services.

 

RENEW YOUR ENTRY

As a foreigner and inhabitant of Calp you need to know that you must renew your entry periodically, normally every 2 to 5 years depending on your residential status. You just need to bring your passport and NIE to renew."

 

It's nice to be wanted :D ........

So you have a residential address where you habitually live as an inhabitant of a town in Spain?

 

Yep......The campsite address ;-) ..........

That is not where you "habitually live". Eventually you will come unstuck.

 

It is when we're in Spain ;-) ..........

 

 

[yoko8pups]

How will affect UK persons who live say in France/Spain ? If they keep their Uk citizenship, i.e Passports, will they also have to leave after the time period?

 

Another scenario what about the above persons, pension payments? If they decide to give up UK passports, should our government stop paying the pension? After all they will become foreign citizens ?

 

 

Will be interesting to see, what really happens to the Uk citizens, living in the EU, when we we come out!! .

 

UK citiizens are entitled to dual nationality with other countries which permit it. Taking another citizenship and residence doesn't affect pensions or even, if a pensioner, the right to healthcare.

[starvin marvin]

pelmetman - 2018-12-10 2:39 PM

 

colin - 2018-12-10 1:54 PM

 

pelmetman - 2018-12-10 12:34 PM

 

colin - 2018-12-10 12:13 PM

 

I'm not sure how well integrated Schengen controls are, I seem to recall Gary staying overtime? but I've got an image of Dave waving his padron at French customs saying "But I've got this!"

 

Do the French customs man Bilbao and Santander now? 8-) ........

 

 

Well substitute Spanish for French. Just remember the relationship between local and national government in Spain is nothing like the UK.

 

I wonder what they're going to do about all the Russians living here? :-S ..........

 

They're not even in the Schengen agreement ;-) ........

 

 

They’re not Russians, they’re Portuguese, they just sound Russian.

[Brian Kirby]

yoko8pups - 2018-12-10 5:32 PM

 

How will affect UK persons who live say in France/Spain ? If they keep their Uk citizenship, i.e Passports, will they also have to leave after the time period?

 

Another scenario what about the above persons, pension payments? If they decide to give up UK passports, should our government stop paying the pension? After all they will become foreign citizens ?

 

Will be interesting to see, what really happens to the Uk citizens, living in the EU, when we we come out!! .

 

UK citiizens are entitled to dual nationality with other countries which permit it. Taking another citizenship and residence doesn't affect pensions or even, if a pensioner, the right to healthcare.

The above are all dealt with in the 585 page draft withdrawal agreement. You really need to download/read this to cover all the points. However, that deals with residency and not post Brexit travel, which is what this string is about.

 

But, if that agreement is not adopted, as seems likely, all bets are off! As to that, we just have to wait and see over the next few days. Good, innit? :-)

[Brian Kirby]

pelmetman - 2018-12-10 4:44 PM...………………...

Perhaps you could explain how the Russians appear to have no problems staying for more than 90 days? ;-) ...........

 

They're not even in the Schengen zone >:-) ..........

Well you could try asking them. However, I suspect it is because they get long term Schengen visas, don't you?

[colin]

Brian Kirby - 2018-12-10 6:42 PM

 

pelmetman - 2018-12-10 4:44 PM...………………...

Perhaps you could explain how the Russians appear to have no problems staying for more than 90 days? ;-) ...........

 

They're not even in the Schengen zone >:-) ..........

Well you could try asking them. However, I suspect it is because they get long term Schengen visas, don't you?

 

 

They will have long term residence permits.

[mildi]

For UK residents in France, the French government has given this information.

 

https://mobile.interieur.gouv.fr/Actualites/Le-ministere-de-l-Interieur-se-prepare-au-Brexit/Sejour?fbclid=IwAR0Wvmc6rqva5ZNlr0iySp_n8uYHmByG4ueO8zFtwKurw2B7WWEMWOO5qmQ

[teflon2]

Yes please the sooner the better. :D OOps this is for Derek

[Bulletguy]

colin - 2018-12-10 6:53 PM

 

Brian Kirby - 2018-12-10 6:42 PM

 

pelmetman - 2018-12-10 4:44 PM...………………...

Perhaps you could explain how the Russians appear to have no problems staying for more than 90 days? ;-) ...........

 

They're not even in the Schengen zone >:-) ..........

Well you could try asking them. However, I suspect it is because they get long term Schengen visas, don't you?

 

 

They will have long term residence permits.

Yes i expect as in owning a permanent dwelling where they "habitually live" as residents.......not parking up in a campervan and claiming the site as an "address" they "habitually live". Whilst that 'dodge' may work in Spain (for the moment), it certainly won't impress UK border authorities on re-entry where any overstay will already be electronically logged.

[Robbo]

We have a similar travel itinerary as you Brian, Spring / Autumn trips lasting less than 90 days.

 

I think the 180 day period would be extremely difficult to monitor (by the authorities) unless it started on your first day of travel. You could play the system to your advantage by taking an extra brief shopping trip to France in Jan/Feb. This would set your end of 180 day period to July/August. You may only need to do this once as it would presumably rollover to following years and become your regular travel regime.

 

The reason why so little information is currently available for extended travel in the EU is, probably because it is such a small matter in the overall scheme of things. The only persons directly affected are frequent business travellers (they will probably have an extended visa), second home owners and the likes of us. This probably represents less than 1% (guesstimate) of trips made from the UK to the EU, the rest being mostly short tourist trips made by airline.

 

Lastly, we have never been in the Schengen zone, as you rightly mention. But, given visa free travel to the Schengen countries by being a member of the EU. Perhaps we've always been subjected to the 90 day travel restrictions, but they were never enforced ???

[Bulletguy]

Robbo - 2018-12-10 8:20 PM

 

We have a similar travel itinerary as you Brian, Spring / Autumn trips lasting less than 90 days.

 

I think the 180 day period would be extremely difficult to monitor (by the authorities) unless it started on your first day of travel.

Ever wondered why you no longer need to show your booking details when you pull up at any of the ferry port booths? They've already got it on their database the minute you pull up. ANPR....making monitoring of your exit and return very simple.

 

 

Lastly, we have never been in the Schengen zone, as you rightly mention. But, given visa free travel to the Schengen countries by being a member of the EU. Perhaps we've always been subjected to the 90 day travel restrictions, but they were never enforced ???

Bib is correct. Enforcement will be very simple though due to the above mentioned....ANPR.

[TheFrenchConnection]

Under the current agreement there is no problem - but 'nothing is agreed unto everything is agreed'.

Nothing has been said about our ability to move around in Shengen so far as I'm aware and that remains a potential problem. For example the current agreement would allow us to 'offer our services' to citizens of our own nationality (British) or our 'host' country (France), so how do we deal with Belgian, German or Spanish customers?

I don't want to start a spat, but Pelmetman reminds me of the Brits living here in France driving illegal UK plate cars and not paying taxes swearing blind they are not resident despite spending the majority of there time here. The radar is going to scan lower post Brexit.

[Guest pelmetman]

Bulletguy - 2018-12-10 8:50 PM

 

Robbo - 2018-12-10 8:20 PM

 

We have a similar travel itinerary as you Brian, Spring / Autumn trips lasting less than 90 days.

 

I think the 180 day period would be extremely difficult to monitor (by the authorities) unless it started on your first day of travel.

Ever wondered why you no longer need to show your booking details when you pull up at any of the ferry port booths? They've already got it on their database the minute you pull up. ANPR....making monitoring of your exit and return very simple.

 

 

Lastly, we have never been in the Schengen zone, as you rightly mention. But, given visa free travel to the Schengen countries by being a member of the EU. Perhaps we've always been subjected to the 90 day travel restrictions, but they were never enforced ???

Bib is correct. Enforcement will be very simple though due to the above mentioned....ANPR.

 

Hate to point out the bleedin obvious ;-) .........all the ANPR can prove is where the vehicle was........not who the driver is :D ..........

 

 

[Guest pelmetman]

TheFrenchConnection - 2018-12-10 8:55 PM

 

Under the current agreement there is no problem - but 'nothing is agreed unto everything is agreed'.

Nothing has been said about our ability to move around in Shengen so far as I'm aware and that remains a potential problem. For example the current agreement would allow us to 'offer our services' to citizens of our own nationality (British) or our 'host' country (France), so how do we deal with Belgian, German or Spanish customers?

I don't want to start a spat, but Pelmetman reminds me of the Brits living here in France driving illegal UK plate cars and not paying taxes swearing blind they are not resident despite spending the majority of there time here. The radar is going to scan lower post Brexit.

 

The reason I've got the padron is NOT because of Brexit ..........But because it's a requirement for registering my UK car on Spanish plates ;-) ..........

 

 

[Bulletguy]

pelmetman - 2018-12-10 9:18 PM

 

Bulletguy - 2018-12-10 8:50 PM

 

Robbo - 2018-12-10 8:20 PM

 

We have a similar travel itinerary as you Brian, Spring / Autumn trips lasting less than 90 days.

 

I think the 180 day period would be extremely difficult to monitor (by the authorities) unless it started on your first day of travel.

Ever wondered why you no longer need to show your booking details when you pull up at any of the ferry port booths? They've already got it on their database the minute you pull up. ANPR....making monitoring of your exit and return very simple.

 

 

Lastly, we have never been in the Schengen zone, as you rightly mention. But, given visa free travel to the Schengen countries by being a member of the EU. Perhaps we've always been subjected to the 90 day travel restrictions, but they were never enforced ???

Bib is correct. Enforcement will be very simple though due to the above mentioned....ANPR.

 

Hate to point out the bleedin obvious ;-) .........all the ANPR can prove is where the vehicle was........not who the driver is :D ..........

Matters not "who the driver was" and if you'd read my post instead of jumping around you'd see i made no mention of "the driver". The vehicle detail is recorded as is the name of the person/s in which the booking was made. The vehicle registration also tracks back to an owner.

 

However, if Dover Harbour board, the governing body responsible for the port, felt it necessary to electronically record image of the vehicle driver, that's very simply done as the electronics are already in place at the booths....eg an FPN doesn't just identify the vehicle reg number, it also identifies the driver.

[TheFrenchConnection]

pelmetman - 2018-12-10 10:21 PM

 

TheFrenchConnection - 2018-12-10 8:55 PM

 

Under the current agreement there is no problem - but 'nothing is agreed unto everything is agreed'.

Nothing has been said about our ability to move around in Shengen so far as I'm aware and that remains a potential problem. For example the current agreement would allow us to 'offer our services' to citizens of our own nationality (British) or our 'host' country (France), so how do we deal with Belgian, German or Spanish customers?

I don't want to start a spat, but Pelmetman reminds me of the Brits living here in France driving illegal UK plate cars and not paying taxes swearing blind they are not resident despite spending the majority of there time here. The radar is going to scan lower post Brexit.

 

The reason I've got the padron is NOT because of Brexit ..........But because it's a requirement for registering my UK car on Spanish plates ;-) ..........

 

 

Pelmettman, EU law says (and I'm fairly sure that Spain is part of the EU) that a vehicle can only be registered to your domicile - ie in the country in which you are resident. This is well documented and causing problems for non-resident Brits in France (also an EU country I.believe) who have registered cars here.

 

Hypocritical doesn't come close to describing your attempts to play both ends against the middle.

[Geeco]

Brian, Currently Australian Passport holders can enter UK (NO visa required) for a period of 6 months with no work permitted.None of the entry stamps in my current passport for EU countries nominate a entry period. I have in mind it is 3 months. Currently NO visa is required for either EU or Schengen countries. Previously Schengen countries required a visa.A review of my old passports revealed the last Visa for France was 1992 & for Spain was 1994. 

 We like back roads so we find many roads from one country to another in Europe where there is no checkpoint. I do not see that changing. All our travel in UK/Europe is by rental car our Auto-trail is based here in Sydney. 

 I have never overstayed in UK/Europe so can not help with the issues that action may present.

Currently we are booking accommodation in UK for our visit May/June & we are surprised that many B&B's along with small private hotels are already completely booked for that period. The uncertainly re EU travel for UK residents may well assist the tourist industry in UK this year.

We have been travelling to UK/Europe for over 40 years & have found it is always possible to have a great time by limiting our away period to around 6 weeks. You might need to reconfigure your breaks to fit in with the regulations when & if they change. Then again you could always consider a break here in your winter, the Pound goes a long way and we almost speak the same language! cheers,

[Guest pelmetman]

Bulletguy - 2018-12-10 9:39 PM

 

pelmetman - 2018-12-10 9:18 PM

 

Bulletguy - 2018-12-10 8:50 PM

 

Robbo - 2018-12-10 8:20 PM

 

We have a similar travel itinerary as you Brian, Spring / Autumn trips lasting less than 90 days.

 

I think the 180 day period would be extremely difficult to monitor (by the authorities) unless it started on your first day of travel.

Ever wondered why you no longer need to show your booking details when you pull up at any of the ferry port booths? They've already got it on their database the minute you pull up. ANPR....making monitoring of your exit and return very simple.

 

 

Lastly, we have never been in the Schengen zone, as you rightly mention. But, given visa free travel to the Schengen countries by being a member of the EU. Perhaps we've always been subjected to the 90 day travel restrictions, but they were never enforced ???

Bib is correct. Enforcement will be very simple though due to the above mentioned....ANPR.

 

Hate to point out the bleedin obvious ;-) .........all the ANPR can prove is where the vehicle was........not who the driver is :D ..........

Matters not "who the driver was" and if you'd read my post instead of jumping around you'd see i made no mention of "the driver". The vehicle detail is recorded as is the name of the person/s in which the booking was made. The vehicle registration also tracks back to an owner.

 

However, if Dover Harbour board, the governing body responsible for the port, felt it necessary to electronically record image of the vehicle driver, that's very simply done as the electronics are already in place at the booths....eg an FPN doesn't just identify the vehicle reg number, it also identifies the driver.

 

Incorrecto.........again ;-) ..........It identifies who made the booking........and........ tracks back to the registered keeper *-) ..........

 

 

[Guest pelmetman]

TheFrenchConnection - 2018-12-10 11:21 PM

 

pelmetman - 2018-12-10 10:21 PM

 

TheFrenchConnection - 2018-12-10 8:55 PM

 

Under the current agreement there is no problem - but 'nothing is agreed unto everything is agreed'.

Nothing has been said about our ability to move around in Shengen so far as I'm aware and that remains a potential problem. For example the current agreement would allow us to 'offer our services' to citizens of our own nationality (British) or our 'host' country (France), so how do we deal with Belgian, German or Spanish customers?

I don't want to start a spat, but Pelmetman reminds me of the Brits living here in France driving illegal UK plate cars and not paying taxes swearing blind they are not resident despite spending the majority of there time here. The radar is going to scan lower post Brexit.

 

The reason I've got the padron is NOT because of Brexit ..........But because it's a requirement for registering my UK car on Spanish plates ;-) ..........

 

 

Pelmettman, EU law says (and I'm fairly sure that Spain is part of the EU) that a vehicle can only be registered to your domicile - ie in the country in which you are resident. This is well documented and causing problems for non-resident Brits in France (also an EU country I.believe) who have registered cars here.

 

Hypocritical doesn't come close to describing your attempts to play both ends against the middle.

 

France is not Spain ;-) ............

 

BTW ........As I'm currently of no fixed abode......Spain "is" where we spend the most time in one place >:-) .........

 

 

[Geeco]

Brian, as a follow up to my last post my wife has been searching the Internet for additional information to assist you and found the following on a backpacker site. The site suggests that France will provide a Long term visa to those persons that can prove they have  thirty thousand Euros to support themselves without working. So in addition to that option we could ( AU passport holders) spend 90 days in a Schengen country, leave  on say 89 days then travel to Uk and stay for 6 months then go back to a Schengen country for a further 90 days. So it may be that in the future an AU passport will allow easier movement in UK/EU than a UK passport.

The other issue that confuses me relates to the hard border between North & South Ireland or if you like Eire and UK. If you will need a passport as a UK citizen to travel to an EU country post "B" why should you not need a Passport to move from one end of Ireland to the other.

I see that situation to be the same as the "hard" border between Canada & USA. If I understand it correctly the south of Ireland is a separate country to UK so why not a "hard" border?  Interesting times over the next month or so, riots in Paris and crisis talks in Brussels. Cheers,

[colin]

Geeco - 2018-12-11 9:16 AM

 

The other issue that confuses me relates to the hard border between North & South Ireland or if you like Eire and UK. If you will need a passport as a UK citizen to travel to an EU country post "B" why should you not need a Passport to move from one end of Ireland to the other.

I see that situation to be the same as the "hard" border between Canada & USA. If I understand it correctly the south of Ireland is a separate country to UK so why not a "hard" border?  Interesting times over the next month or so, riots in Paris and crisis talks in Brussels. Cheers,

 

That's a whole different can of worms, the politics over this stretch back to when Ireland was segregated. It is nothing like the US Canada situation.

[spirou]

I doubt Ireland issue is clear to anyone except possibly the (northern) Irish. As if any current border control between EU/non EU country is such a big deal to travel across, 90% of vehicles just get waived through. I've had more problems (time wasted on a daily basis) crossing between EU countries (Slovenia/Austria) in the past couple of years than anywhere else except possibly Croatia/Serbia during summer weekends and that has more to do with country relations than EU border security.

 

Pelmetman is more than likely correct in thinking nobody will care much about him and his residence status if he doesn't give them a reason to. But there's always the: what if someone does? Effectively he is/will be an illegal immigrant brexiteers like to complain about so much :-D

[Robbo]

Bulletguy - 2018-12-10 8:50 PM

 

Robbo - 2018-12-10 8:20 PM

 

We have a similar travel itinerary as you Brian, Spring / Autumn trips lasting less than 90 days.

 

I think the 180 day period would be extremely difficult to monitor (by the authorities) unless it started on your first day of travel.

 

The point I was making was about the "180 day period" and it's start date. It could benefit the traveller to have the 180 day start date commencing in advance of the first day of travel. For example, Brian could easily accommodate both his Spring and Autumn trips if the start date of the 180 day period commenced in Jan/Feb.

 

However, I suspect the border control authorities would record your first day of travel (for ease of monitoring) as being the start date of your 180 day period.

 

 

[Brian Kirby]

Bulletguy - 2018-12-10 8:50 PM

 

Robbo - 2018-12-10 8:20 PM

 

We have a similar travel itinerary as you Brian, Spring / Autumn trips lasting less than 90 days.

 

I think the 180 day period would be extremely difficult to monitor (by the authorities) unless it started on your first day of travel.

Ever wondered why you no longer need to show your booking details when you pull up at any of the ferry port booths? They've already got it on their database the minute you pull up. ANPR....making monitoring of your exit and return very simple.

 

Lastly, we have never been in the Schengen zone, as you rightly mention. But, given visa free travel to the Schengen countries by being a member of the EU. Perhaps we've always been subjected to the 90 day travel restrictions, but they were never enforced ???

Bib is correct. Enforcement will be very simple though due to the above mentioned....ANPR.

Paul, if you check the Schengen visa requirements, I think you will find that the entry conditions refer to individuals, not vehicles.

 

As I understand the site, it will be your passport that will be examined which (assuming the new, non-EU type post Brexit passports continue to be machine readable) takes virtually no time. Your entry into Schengen will be recorded at that point, and you will (according to the Schengen website), also be required to present your passport on leaving the Schengen area. Thus, each time you enter/leave Schengen, the duration of your trip will be recorded. As I understand the site, the entry "stamp" also sets the commencement of the 180 day period within which you are allowed to spend 90 days in total in the Schengen area.

 

The only possible linkage between vehicle and passport holder is through the present system as operated at the tunnel (and I assume the ferries), of pre-registering the passports in order to allow your vehicle to be "waived through" the control. I assume this will fix the commencement of the 180 day period as commencing on the date the vehicle (and hence the occupants with their passports pre-registered) actually presents. It isn't clear to me under whose jurisdiction that arrangement was made, so I have no idea whether it will/would survive Brexit. Best to assume that physical inspection of passports will become routine post Brexit, I think.

 

So, in answer to Robbo's question, recording one's comings and goings, and their durations, will be an automated process which, as I see it, will be extremely difficult to bypass because it does not depend on in-country checks (although it seems that, as third country visitors, we shall be required to register at hotels, camp sites, etc, and I assume for aires, the local town hall). So, in addition to knowing when/where you enter and leave, and so how long you have stayed, they will also know where you have been, all through the Schengen recording system.

 

I have to emphasise that this will not mirror present practice as we presently enter Schengen as EU citizens, whereas post Brexit we will be entering as third country citizens with whatever rights any future negotiated deal (the present "deal" is a withdrawal agreement only, and does not address future arrangements for travel) may confer on us, or no rights at all in the event of a "no deal" Brexit - saving those granted to third country citizens (according to whether UK goes on the "visa" list or the "no visa" list) under present Schengen legislation.

 

In saying you have never entered the Schengen area, Robbo, are you saying you have never left the UK for your overseas trips, except to cross to Ireland or for long haul travel? I ask because, AFAIK, all sea routes from UK to mainland Europe arrive at a Schengen area port. West to east, that would include Spain, France, Belgium, Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden, Germany and Norway.

 

All EU states except (currently) Britain and Ireland (with opt-outs), Croatia, Bulgaria, Romania, and Cyprus (all treaty committed to join) are in Schengen, plus the non-EU states of Switzerland, Liechtenstein, Norway and Iceland.

[Brian Kirby]

Geeco - 2018-12-10 11:54 PM

 

Brian, Currently Australian Passport holders can enter UK (NO visa required) for a period of 6 months with no work permitted.None of the entry stamps in my current passport for EU countries nominate a entry period. I have in mind it is 3 months. Currently NO visa is required for either EU or Schengen countries. Previously Schengen countries required a visa.A review of my old passports revealed the last Visa for France was 1992 & for Spain was 1994. 

 We like back roads so we find many roads from one country to another in Europe where there is no checkpoint. I do not see that changing. All our travel in UK/Europe is by rental car our Auto-trail is based here in Sydney. 

 I have never overstayed in UK/Europe so can not help with the issues that action may present.

Currently we are booking accommodation in UK for our visit May/June & we are surprised that many B&B's along with small private hotels are already completely booked for that period. The uncertainly re EU travel for UK residents may well assist the tourist industry in UK this year.

We have been travelling to UK/Europe for over 40 years & have found it is always possible to have a great time by limiting our away period to around 6 weeks. You might need to reconfigure your breaks to fit in with the regulations when & if they change. Then again you could always consider a break here in your winter, the Pound goes a long way and we almost speak the same language! cheers,

Thanks Gary. I think I was confusing your travel arrangements with Frank's (our Canadian member). Apologies.

 

I had assumed that you would not require visas for Schengen as Australia is on the "no visa" list of Schengen countries, so it was reassuring to see I've understood that bit correctly. Thanks again.

 

Happy travels! :-)