Stays in Schengen area post Brexit

[aandy]

Cattwg - 2018-12-14 5:42 PM

 

 

The above statement from the document seems to suggest that there can be more than one stay within a 180-day period provided they do not aggregate to more than 90 days.

 

Cattwg :-D

 

I can't speak with any authority but from what you and others have found it seems pretty clear that that is precisely what it means. On any day when you are in mainland Europe you must not have been in a EU member state for more than 90 days in total over the previous 180. When planning a trip, therefore, you would have to look at the last day of your intended stay and satisfy yourself that you will have been in the EU for no more than 90 days during the 180 day period immediately preceding it.

 

If you were to stay for 90 days continuous you could return after another 90 and stay for the same period again, as on every day of your second stay the start of the 180 day period would roll forward, the days of your 'allowance' dropping off the first stay at the same time as they accrue to the second. Apologies if I've overlooked something obvious, but it seems fairly simple, albeit a bit of a pain keeping count if you are near the limit.

[kevina]

Brian, screenshot - luckily still had the tab open.

 

To get 180 days pa you would have to do 90 eu 90 uk 90 eu etc

 

It seems that the more flexibility you require the less days you get. We normally do 2 60 day trips but from 2021 would have to split one of the trips.

[witzend]

All Aboard

 

[Guest rael]

Whichever way you voted, its probably time we accepted that getting to, and enjoying Europe is going to more expensive post brexit. Whilst we consider this, maybe we should spare a thought for those not so fortunate as us with our nice motorhomes who will get well and truly shafted when the sh.t hit the fan.

[Barryd999]

rael - 2018-12-14 11:09 PM

 

Whichever way you voted, its probably time we accepted that getting to, and enjoying Europe is going to more expensive post brexit. Whilst we consider this, maybe we should spare a thought for those not so fortunate as us with our nice motorhomes who will get well and truly shafted when the sh.t hit the fan.

 

It is without a doubt. No doubt some will say its rubbish but look at the hit the pound took just on the vote. If we crash out what will happen then? If it goes badly here in the UK but the Eurozone thrives there is always the possibility that it will simply become too expensive for most of us to travel to mainland Europe so the 90 day thing may be the least of our worries. Imagine paying £2-3 for a litre of fuel or £20-30 for an aire that used to cost £5-10. Sounds ridiculous doesnt it but then look at the cost of living in places like Switzerland that are out of kilter with the UK and most of Europe price wise.

[Bulletguy]

747 - 2018-12-14 3:55 PM

 

Deneb - 2018-12-14 1:57 PM

 

I have deliberately stayed out of Brexit type posts so far, but I wouldn't worry about new hospitals.

 

My wife has worked in the NHS for over 40 years. We can't fully staff the hospitals we've got now and the NHS is heavily reliant on foreign workers, partly because it is impossible to find enough British people willing to do a lot of the less glamorous jobs which are nevertheless absolutely necessary to keep hospitals running and provide even adequate patient care. We've pushed all our young people into getting university educations, and they now enter the world of work with an attitude that because they have a degree (albeit in music technology or indigenous American history as just two examples) a lot of tasks are beneath them.

 

You can't even get a lot of trained nurses to clear up bodily fluids and other messes apparently, because after they've done it once and ticked it off there training requirements, it's "not their job" as qualified nursing staff.

 

My wife and many of her colleagues believe that, if foreign unskilled workers are forced to leave the UK, it will be a death knell for the NHS as we know it.

 

Sorry my friend but I have to disagree with you on this.

 

Why is their a shortage of British born Nurses? Simply because we do not pay them while in training. My Daughter had to study hard for 2 years to qualify as a Theatre Nurse (ODP or summat it is called these days). She did not get a wage, she got a Bursary ..... of £80 a month. Now you tell me, who do you know that would work hard (without the firm offer of a job at the end of it) for £20 a week and buy all their own textbooks and pay their commuting costs out of that.

Something isn't quite stacking up here 747 as we don't have the full story. Did your daughter study as a full time student at college or was she studying whilst training on the job, eg as a healthcare asst? The former quite naturally would not be paid as a college student isn't an employed position whereas the latter is and receives an income, eg; Band 2 healthcare asst is currently £17.5k pa.

 

Also the Bursary amount is dependent on each students income level (if earning) or if not earning, parents income.

[Bulletguy]

aandy - 2018-12-14 4:17 PM

 

Billggski - 2018-12-14 2:30 PM

 

Having only €100 left of the euros I bought at 1.43 before the referendum I am afraid sterling is definitely stuffed. Why are brexiters so afraid of a people's vote? Because the penny has finally dropped that the public were lied to and misled by a set of rich public schoolboys?

 

We were indeed lied to, from both sides. It happens every time we vote on anything. The trick is to pick the few grains of truth from among the lies and to use a bit of judgment. I never believed that the £350m was going to go to the health service once we left and stopped contributing to the EU (which, incidentally, nobody said it would), but if I had I'd at least wait until we were out before complaining that that hadn't happened (I know it wasn't you who raised that, but better than posting a second response).

Director of the Leave campaign, Dominic Cummings, openly admitted the "£350m lie" on the bus was pivotal to the campaign even though he knew it was a distortion of fact and as for 'waiting until out' before complaining is rather like shutting the gate after the horse has bolted! However, it's not going to be left to quietly disappear as Brexit ministers who gleefully peddled this myth, Johnson, Gove et al, will be held to account and NHS head Simon Stevens summed it up perfectly.

 

 

So next time you're sitting in a wheelchair or on stretcher for hours on end in a hospital corridor, remember what you voted for.

[Bulletguy]

Cattwg - 2018-12-14 5:42 PM

 

To return to the subject of the original post.

I’ve had a reply to my 90 in 180 days query to the C&CC. As I expected they were unable to give much more clarification. They did direct me to https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/travelling-to-the-eu-with-a-uk-passport-if-theres-no-brexit-deal/travelling-to-the-eu-with-a-uk-passport-if-theres-no-brexit-deal . This reiterates the 90 in 180 days rule but offers no real clarification.

 

“… of a duration of no more than 90 days in any 180-day period, which

entails considering the 180-day period preceding each day of stay …”

 

The above statement from the document seems to suggest that there can be more than one stay within a 180-day period provided they do not aggregate to more than 90 days.

 

The document does go into some detail regarding passport requirements.

 

The C&CC did say that they intend to offer advice when the situation is clearer.

Cattwg :-D

Under which sub-header is that as the only mention of the 90 day stay i could find was "Because third country nationals can remain in the Schengen area for 90 days (approximately 3 months)" under sub-header for no deal? Is it in one of the embedded links?

[Geeco]

Pauline (PJAY), a little late in answering your questions as I have been mulling over how I would reply while trying to avoid offending the voters from either side of the debate. To answer your first question I was born in AU (third generation)with a mixture of Euro races in my family background, like most folk in this country.

 In terms of how I would have voted I initially felt yes was the correct decision. Now I suspect from what I have read this will cause a period of financial pain for the UK which is unfortunate. However at the time the EU was formed I can clearly remember prices in Spain, Italy etc increased in the order of around 20% and we all managed. I believe however that the long term social implications of leaving will be beneficial to the UK. I have seen the change that has occurred in one of the most multicultural countries in the world, here in AU my backyard. It is not appropriate to drill down into the changes here but I think each country should not loose it's identity by inviting too large a percentage of other countries citizens to settle. Once that happens the culture changes and from my perspective that is not good. Pauline hopefully I have answered your question without offending too many. Cheers,

[747]

Bulletguy - 2018-12-14 11:50 PM

 

747 - 2018-12-14 3:55 PM

 

Deneb - 2018-12-14 1:57 PM

 

I have deliberately stayed out of Brexit type posts so far, but I wouldn't worry about new hospitals.

 

My wife has worked in the NHS for over 40 years. We can't fully staff the hospitals we've got now and the NHS is heavily reliant on foreign workers, partly because it is impossible to find enough British people willing to do a lot of the less glamorous jobs which are nevertheless absolutely necessary to keep hospitals running and provide even adequate patient care. We've pushed all our young people into getting university educations, and they now enter the world of work with an attitude that because they have a degree (albeit in music technology or indigenous American history as just two examples) a lot of tasks are beneath them.

 

You can't even get a lot of trained nurses to clear up bodily fluids and other messes apparently, because after they've done it once and ticked it off there training requirements, it's "not their job" as qualified nursing staff.

 

My wife and many of her colleagues believe that, if foreign unskilled workers are forced to leave the UK, it will be a death knell for the NHS as we know it.

 

Sorry my friend but I have to disagree with you on this.

 

Why is their a shortage of British born Nurses? Simply because we do not pay them while in training. My Daughter had to study hard for 2 years to qualify as a Theatre Nurse (ODP or summat it is called these days). She did not get a wage, she got a Bursary ..... of £80 a month. Now you tell me, who do you know that would work hard (without the firm offer of a job at the end of it) for £20 a week and buy all their own textbooks and pay their commuting costs out of that.

Something isn't quite stacking up here 747 as we don't have the full story. Did your daughter study as a full time student at college or was she studying whilst training on the job, eg as a healthcare asst? The former quite naturally would not be paid as a college student isn't an employed position whereas the latter is and receives an income, eg; Band 2 healthcare asst is currently £17.5k pa.

 

Also the Bursary amount is dependent on each students income level (if earning) or if not earning, parents income.

 

She was a Student and not in other employment.

 

Given that the majority of Nurses are female and Married or living with Parents, the system is ridiculous for attracting new Staff. That is why common practice has been to recruit already qualified Staff from overseas (which also saves a lot of money as training costs are bypassed). Brexit could affect the NHS but it is not the root cause of the problems.

[aandy]

Bulletguy - 2018-12-15 12:07 AM

 

 

Director of the Leave campaign, Dominic Cummings, openly admitted the "£350m lie" on the bus was pivotal to the campaign even though he knew it was a distortion of fact and as for 'waiting until out' before complaining is rather like shutting the gate after the horse has bolted! However, it's not going to be left to quietly disappear as Brexit ministers who gleefully peddled this myth, Johnson, Gove et al, will be held to account and NHS head Simon Stevens summed it up perfectly.

 

So next time you're sitting in a wheelchair or on stretcher for hours on end in a hospital corridor, remember what you voted for.

 

Firstly, the £350m is not what we actually pay to the EU but it is what the EU deem to be our due and what we would have been paying - were we to stay in - once the rebate, which was never permanent comes to an end.

 

Second, it did not say any additional money would be spent on the NHS, it simply suggested that would be a possibility. The phrase was "lets fund the NHS instead", simply a suggestion and most certainly not a promise.

 

Third, even if it could be construed as a promise, the leave campaign were not the government and were in no position to make spending commitments on behalf of the government.

 

Your stable door comment misses the point. You cannot say something has not happened before the time at which it was supposed to happen has passed. Whatever people thought might have been promised, it was never even suggested that it would be before we had actually left.

 

[Guest pelmetman]

Barryd999 - 2018-12-14 11:38 PM

 

rael - 2018-12-14 11:09 PM

 

Whichever way you voted, its probably time we accepted that getting to, and enjoying Europe is going to more expensive post brexit. Whilst we consider this, maybe we should spare a thought for those not so fortunate as us with our nice motorhomes who will get well and truly shafted when the sh.t hit the fan.

 

It is without a doubt. No doubt some will say its rubbish but look at the hit the pound took just on the vote. If we crash out what will happen then? If it goes badly here in the UK but the Eurozone thrives there is always the possibility that it will simply become too expensive for most of us to travel to mainland Europe so the 90 day thing may be the least of our worries. Imagine paying £2-3 for a litre of fuel or £20-30 for an aire that used to cost £5-10. Sounds ridiculous doesnt it but then look at the cost of living in places like Switzerland that are out of kilter with the UK and most of Europe price wise.

 

Really?.........

 

Worst case scenario pound euro at parity would mean my favourite vino would cost £1.87 ..........

 

A nice 3 course meal with wine would cost £15 a head ;-) .........

 

 

 

 

[Guest pelmetman]

Point of order.........I wonder what percentage of UK motorhomers actually spend more than 90 days in the EU? :-S ..........

 

My guess is 1% based on those who stay here for the winter :-| ...........

 

Just adding some perspective to this thread :D ..........

 

 

[Barryd999]

pelmetman - 2018-12-15 8:13 AM

 

Barryd999 - 2018-12-14 11:38 PM

 

rael - 2018-12-14 11:09 PM

 

Whichever way you voted, its probably time we accepted that getting to, and enjoying Europe is going to more expensive post brexit. Whilst we consider this, maybe we should spare a thought for those not so fortunate as us with our nice motorhomes who will get well and truly shafted when the sh.t hit the fan.

 

It is without a doubt. No doubt some will say its rubbish but look at the hit the pound took just on the vote. If we crash out what will happen then? If it goes badly here in the UK but the Eurozone thrives there is always the possibility that it will simply become too expensive for most of us to travel to mainland Europe so the 90 day thing may be the least of our worries. Imagine paying £2-3 for a litre of fuel or £20-30 for an aire that used to cost £5-10. Sounds ridiculous doesnt it but then look at the cost of living in places like Switzerland that are out of kilter with the UK and most of Europe price wise.

 

Really?.........

 

Worst case scenario pound euro at parity would mean my favourite vino would cost £1.87 ..........

 

A nice 3 course meal with wine would cost £15 a head ;-) .........

 

 

 

 

£1.87? you really should stop drinking Spanish paint stripper Dave, its made you crazy. (lol)

 

Worst case scenario? You dont know that but of course neither do I but I bet its only going in one direction.

 

 

 

Anyway we are all taking Brians thread off course again.

[Guest pelmetman]

Barryd999 - 2018-12-15 8:28 AM

 

 

£1.87? you really should stop drinking Spanish paint stripper Dave, its made you crazy. (lol)

 

 

They sell it in UK Lidel ;-) .........

 

Its 5 quid there 8-) ............

 

 

[Brian Kirby]

747 - 2018-12-13 9:10 AM...............The problems with Brexit negotiations stem from the self serving greedy corrupt Politicians. If we had been better served, none of this present situation would have happened. I feel deeply ashamed of them, so don't villainise someone for voting Leave, put the blame where it belongs...…………..

Fine, but the impact of leaving will be felt by everyone, it seems both within, and out of, the EU. Is that reasonable? After all, if our politicians are all as rotten as you say, who was it who elected them - just those who voted to remain?

[Brian Kirby]

pelmetman - 2018-12-13 1:16 PM...…………...The liberal view that folk should be allowed to migrate at will regardless of whether they have the wherewithal to support themselves is all fine and dandy..........

And it is also incorrect.

 

It is within the EU rules on free movement that the maximum stay as a tourist is three months, and that if coming to work or as a job-seeker you must have a job, or a reasonable expectation of obtaining one, must be able to support yourself while seeking a job and, if you cannot fid a job within three months, you must leave. If coming to settle, you must have sufficient means and income to support your self indefinitely. It is all there, and can be applied by government if it so chooses. What you have to ask is why government chose to waive those rules.

[Brian Kirby]

aandy - 2018-12-14 2:00 PM.....................As to the other post calling for a "people's vote", we had one two years ago. Having decided to leave, the only question that could legitimately be put now is whether to accept the deal on offer or to leave without one. Even as a leave supporter, I wouldn't want that one put to a public vote.

So, are you saying that you knew as much about Brexit and its impacts at the time you voted, as you now know? I know I didn't.

 

Given that additional knowledge, and given that we are only now getting some clues as to what Brexit might look like (but none as to what future relationship we may have with the EU), why is it unreasonable to ask people what they think?

 

Those who have changed their minds, either way, in the light of what we now know, will be justly angry if they find themselves locked into a deal that is in their opinion bad, is being imposed on them without their consent, and they have no further voice.

 

Democracy does not end with a single vote, it has to bend with changed circumstances, public opinion, and external influences. If it does not, it is no longer democracy: it has become tyranny.

[Deneb]

747 - 2018-12-14 3:55 PM

Sorry my friend but I have to disagree with you on this.

But

 

Every qualified Nurse must have a Degree which seems ridiculous, it's like saying every Mechanic or Electrician needs one.

Here we are in complete agreement.

 

Nobody studies hard for a Degree to do dirty work and labouring.

And here you so eloquently illustrate the point I was making. It is nothing to do with Brexit, but everything to do with the sense of entitlement we seem to have engendered in our domestic workforce through 20 or so years of policy in which almost every student at my childrens' school for example, was pushed towards "university" education as the primary consideration after GCSEs or whatever they may be called these days, and that every career must be "professionalised" by requirements for "degree education" to perform them.

 

My wife and many nurses of her generation had longer training periods than those undertaken by current "degree" nurses, but they joined a vocation with the understanding that their primary role was to provide care to their patients in a way that maximised their comfort and dignity, not to refuse to perform core tasks because they felt that they were beneath their abilities.

 

We have created PC working environments in this country where it is apparently no longer acceptable for senior staff to issue orders, or for junior staff to accept them if they don't feel like it. As a Sister, my wife always asks junior nurses to do things which they refuse because "it is not my job". She invariably ends up putting on the gloves and apron and doing it herself, because her staff feel they are too highly skilled to carry out basic nursing tasks. Surely the point of training is to teach and develop skills to assist in better delivering the core function of nursing care, not to imbue the recipients with a sense that certain aspects of the role are somehow beneath them?

 

Your argument is flawed in that you say the loss of unskilled foreigners will impact on the NHS. It seems these are two totally different points.

To an extent they are. Whilst I agree that the first point is nothing to do with Brexit, the fact that we have as a country created this PC situation and a generation that seem to place self worth and entitlement above a sense of duty, has led to a reliance on hard working individuals from other countries who are not so fussy. It is the possible post Brexit loss of these workers that will impact on the NHS, unless we can somehow change the "I shouldn't have to do dirty work because I have a degree" mindset of our own population.

 

[Deneb]

Brian Kirby - 2018-12-15 11:46 AM

 

So, are you saying that you knew as much about Brexit and its impacts at the time you voted, as you now know? I know I didn't.

 

Well said Brian. I have snipped your quote for brevity, but in its entirety it is probably the most sensible point made in this entire thread!

[747]

A good post Deneb, we seem to be on the same wavelength, maybe it is a generational thing. Luckily our Kids and Grandkids are not suffering with the modern malaise of 'it's not my job' or 'I'm not doing that'. That is probably why they are doing OK while others are not.

 

I gave up on working in Britain as I was fed up with the clowns who were moved into positions of authority, over the heads of competent Engineers who were kept on the tools (because of their skills and experience (a quality apparently not needed in Management). I spent over half my working life overseas on contracts. No job security but with like minded people and I was far happier. In my view, the phrase 'British Management' is an oxymoron

 

I am being told by Brian the OP that the 52% who voted Leave will impact the future of the 48% who wanted to stay. Well, that is Democracy and it was voted for by people who are not paid Members of Parliament but by the general public (who can't claim expenses running into tens of thousands of Pounds like an MP). Therefore, there was no corruption involved, apart from the lies and spin of a few Politicians on the sidelines. Therefore Brian will have to face the fact that the British peoples actions may curtail his long European trips. Some people have to face much worse things in life.

[Brian Kirby]

aandy - 2018-12-14 8:54 PM

 

Cattwg - 2018-12-14 5:42 PM

 

 

The above statement from the document seems to suggest that there can be more than one stay within a 180-day period provided they do not aggregate to more than 90 days.

 

Cattwg :-D

 

I can't speak with any authority but from what you and others have found it seems pretty clear that that is precisely what it means. On any day when you are in mainland Europe you must not have been in a EU member state for more than 90 days in total over the previous 180. When planning a trip, therefore, you would have to look at the last day of your intended stay and satisfy yourself that you will have been in the EU for no more than 90 days during the 180 day period immediately preceding it.

 

If you were to stay for 90 days continuous you could return after another 90 and stay for the same period again, as on every day of your second stay the start of the 180 day period would roll forward, the days of your 'allowance' dropping off the first stay at the same time as they accrue to the second. Apologies if I've overlooked something obvious, but it seems fairly simple, albeit a bit of a pain keeping count if you are near the limit.

Up to a point, but a few bits of the above are not quite correct. My apologies, but Devil and detail, etc. :-)

 

First, it is not just time spent in the EU that counts, but time spent in the Schengen area as a whole. So, as things stand at present, you could leave Schengen to Croatia, Bulgaria, Rumania or Cyprus, while still being in the EU (though all are committed to enter Schengen in the future). You could then re-enter Schengen, and the time spent in the non-Schengen states would not count against the 90 days. But for this to count, your passport would have to be stamped at whichever border you left Schengen, and again at whatever border you re-entered Schengen.

 

Also, it is not right that the 90 days limit applies to time spent in an EU state. The 90 days limit applies to time spent within the Schengen area as a whole which, in addition to the 24 present EU Schengen states, includes Switzerland, Norway, and Iceland. So, were you to spend time in (non-EU) Norway on one trip, and time in (EU) France on another, both trips would count against you permitted 90 days. Once within the Schengen states you can move at will over the 90 days period - so long as you do not spend more than 90 days in total within the whole Schengen area.

 

Where it gets a bit more complicated is when you don't spend 90 days in a single trip, but spend, say 60 days. You would then exit Schengen with 30 days "credit", that you can "spend" within Schengen in the future.

 

So, on the next date that you enter Schengen you carry a retrospective 180 day window that ends on the date of entry, and rolls forward with each day of your stay, within which the residue of your 30 days credit can be used - subject to the total within those 180 days not exceeding 90 days. In effect, you must know the date on which you will leave Schengen before you re-enter to be able to calculate whether or not you would spend more than 90 days in total.

 

My understanding is that you are likely to be asked to show evidence of your intended return date before you will be permitted to enter, meaning you will need to present a dated return ticket. If that date would result in an overstay (as calculated by the border guard), as I understand the current rules, you will be refused entry at that point. This will impact particularly those who usually buy a single ticket out, and a return ticket only when bored/broke!

 

The final, though perhaps obvious, point, is that the 180 day window is not restricted to a calendar year, so that time spent in Schengen in the autumn/winter of one year will be taken into account if taking another trip in the spring/summer of the next year. Your 180 day "shadow" follows you all the time, come rain, come shine! :-D

[Brian Kirby]

aandy - 2018-12-15 8:05 AM…………………..

 

Firstly, the £350m is not what we actually pay to the EU but it is what the EU deem to be our due and what we would have been paying - were we to stay in - once the rebate, which was never permanent comes to an end.

True, because it omits the money that comes back to the UK. The best figure I could find for the net was about £180 million, but this varies year on year. Since this was (relatively) easily checked, it was entirely disingenuous to use the larger, gross, figure merely because it had greater impact.

 

Second, it did not say any additional money would be spent on the NHS, it simply suggested that would be a possibility. The phrase was "lets fund the NHS instead", simply a suggestion and most certainly not a promise.

This ignores the reason for mentioning the sum. Why say that, if one knows it can't happen?

 

Third, even if it could be construed as a promise, the leave campaign were not the government and were in no position to make spending commitments on behalf of the government.

So should government cabinet ministers so uncritically have promoted it?

 

Your stable door comment misses the point. You cannot say something has not happened before the time at which it was supposed to happen has passed. Whatever people thought might have been promised, it was never even suggested that it would be before we had actually left.

But it was clearly paraded as appealing to voters, and as a benefit of Brexit. I agree that it is obvious that the claimed benefits of Brexit could accrue before Brexit. The real point, surely, is that it is now clear that they won't accrue even then.

 

Besides all of which, none of the above is relevant to how long one might be able to spend in Schengen post Brexit, which is determined by existing, long-standing, EU/Schengen directives, and is what this thread was intended to discuss.

[Brian Kirby]

pelmetman - 2018-12-15 8:21 AM

 

Point of order.........I wonder what percentage of UK motorhomers actually spend more than 90 days in the EU? :-S ..........

 

My guess is 1% based on those who stay here for the winter :-| ...........

 

Just adding some perspective to this thread :D ..........

Perspective is fine Dave. How long do you spend each year in the Schengen area?

[phalange]

in hindsight, perhaps the government should have negotiated the exit strategy first and then let the country vote on wether we wanted to leave on those terms or not.