jumpstart Posted August 29, 2019 Share Posted August 29, 2019 Apologies,Eu don’t need visa,I was miss led by the Irish Government’s own website. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barryd999 Posted August 29, 2019 Share Posted August 29, 2019 As I said we will be more exposed to "illegal" immigrants or asylum seekers post Brexit than we are now. Stands to reason doesn't it. Not part of the Dublin regulation anymore, probably no eu mainland British border control anymore, no access to security or immigration databases and an open 300 mile border in Ireland (or so they promise). It's certainly not going to be more controlled! Ports will be in chaos. That wasn't the Fortress Britain myth that was sold though was it? Still we might need them once all the French, Spanish, Polish Etc all clear off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumpstart Posted August 29, 2019 Share Posted August 29, 2019 No don’t see that. Can’t see that there will be more illegal immigrants arriving in Ireland as they would be going through immigration and so would be sent back. As you have already said assylam seekers have to go to first country they arrive in and that won’t be Ireland. Anyway immigration was never for me a issue that determined stay or leave. There are so many parts to the Eu that don’t work. Common agricultural policy,Fisheries policy, Foreign policy and so on. Trade with Eu ...fine but that’s it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted August 29, 2019 Share Posted August 29, 2019 pelmetman - 2019-08-27 5:38 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-08-27 5:29 PM More unicorns! :-D You've mentioned this scheme before, but you've forgotten that in response I drew your attention to the EU website where it clearly showed a border guard, outside a border post, inspecting the ID of a person using that scheme. See, border guard, border post, and inspect ID. How else could anyone know who was wanting to cross the border, and whether they were eligible? That is all it would take to light the fuse. Blimey, this don't 'arf get 'ard sometimes. Little grey cells? There's no need to worry your pretty little head Brian ;-) ........as after the NI referendum that'll be Dublin's problem >:-) ........ If the referendum is in favour of re-unification, NI will become part of Ireland, so will be in the EU. Since the majority in NI voted in favour of remain, and since there would then be no need for a border between Ireland and NI, the border issue wouldn't arise, would it, and only the fervent Unionists (mainly the DUP) would be unhappy. I guess we'd have to offer those who really couldn't hack being Irish asylum or similar, but I doubt Dublin would suffer much actual disruption from them. But in the meantime, since there is as yet no majority of republicans of voting age in NI, and so no realistic chance of a referendum for several years yet, I don't understand where you get to it becoming Dublin's problem as a mere result of holding a referendum. No straight banana! :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted August 29, 2019 Share Posted August 29, 2019 pelmetman - 2019-08-27 5:58 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-08-27 5:50 PM The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland can implement a reunification referendum under the Belfast Agreement, but only when it seems that there is a majority in favour. Looks to me like you've answered your own question Brian ;-) .......... Quite. No majority in favour of re-unification for a number of years yet, and a high risk in triggering the referendum before a positive outcome is assured. Referendum becalmed, no wind, so your kite won't fly. In the meantime???? Little grey cells? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted August 29, 2019 Share Posted August 29, 2019 pelmetman - 2019-08-27 6:54 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-08-27 6:48 PM jumpstart - 2019-08-26 7:30 PM Brian there is already a white paper that proposes our relationship with the Eu, which allows for free movement of Eu citizens except if the want to work then they need a work permit.. Illigal immigration is a different problem but no less illegal in the Eu (except France doesn’t give much of a toot about it ,see all the different nationals at Calais)However it’s not to easy to pop over to Ireland in a rubber dinghy. As far as trade is concerned there are various methods out there without having a hard boarder. Some illigal immigration will take place,it does now. Once there is a trade deal it’s all in the past. There is already an agreement between Britain and the EU that covers free movement and working rights, that successive British governments have disregarded to allow in far more migrants than any other EU state. The white paper draws on that and adds a few "protections" that, AFAIK, merely re-state the restrictions already in the agreements. The decision on which restrictions will actually be applied, and to whom, will be in the hands of the British government of the day, whose track record on restricting immigration to date has not been encouraging. So, good luck with that! :-) It's not been encouraging because we are part of the EU *-) ......... I've lost count of the number of times the ECJ has overturned the decisions of the Home Office or our courts >:-( ......... Total irrelevance! A) The EU had no hand in the way the UK government failed to control migration from eastern Europe. B) Nor, therefore, did the ECJ. BTW, if Britain wants to win more of the cases brought against it in the ECJ, which mainly relate to failures to properly implement EU law (that the UK has itself more often than not voted for), it needs to 1) think more carefully before voting in those laws, and 2) get its own house in order so that it doesn't face legal challenges from other EU member states for cheating. It ain't rocket science! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted August 29, 2019 Share Posted August 29, 2019 Brian Kirby - 2019-08-29 5:06 PM pelmetman - 2019-08-27 6:54 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-08-27 6:48 PM jumpstart - 2019-08-26 7:30 PM Brian there is already a white paper that proposes our relationship with the Eu, which allows for free movement of Eu citizens except if the want to work then they need a work permit.. Illigal immigration is a different problem but no less illegal in the Eu (except France doesn’t give much of a toot about it ,see all the different nationals at Calais)However it’s not to easy to pop over to Ireland in a rubber dinghy. As far as trade is concerned there are various methods out there without having a hard boarder. Some illigal immigration will take place,it does now. Once there is a trade deal it’s all in the past. There is already an agreement between Britain and the EU that covers free movement and working rights, that successive British governments have disregarded to allow in far more migrants than any other EU state. The white paper draws on that and adds a few "protections" that, AFAIK, merely re-state the restrictions already in the agreements. The decision on which restrictions will actually be applied, and to whom, will be in the hands of the British government of the day, whose track record on restricting immigration to date has not been encouraging. So, good luck with that! :-) It's not been encouraging because we are part of the EU *-) ......... I've lost count of the number of times the ECJ has overturned the decisions of the Home Office or our courts >:-( ......... Total irrelevance! A) The EU had no hand in the way the UK government failed to control migration from eastern Europe. B) Nor, therefore, did the ECJ. BTW, if Britain wants to win more of the cases brought against it in the ECJ, which mainly relate to failures to properly implement EU law (that the UK has itself more often than not voted for), it needs to 1) think more carefully before voting in those laws, and 2) get its own house in order so that it doesn't face legal challenges from other EU member states for cheating. It ain't rocket science! Brexiters swallowed the lie about migration and the EU back in 2016 and fanatics like Pelmet still cling to the belief they needed to leave the EU for. Now all we need is France to rip up the Le Touquet agreement and remind Brexiters they wanted to "take back control". :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
747 Posted August 29, 2019 Share Posted August 29, 2019 Do you mean the erroneous (ie, made up) numbers of migrants as supplied by the ONS? :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted August 29, 2019 Share Posted August 29, 2019 747 - 2019-08-29 7:29 PM Do you mean the erroneous (ie, made up) numbers of migrants as supplied by the ONS? :-D Which year/s? Links might help your extraordinarily vague post......then again i doubt they would! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted August 29, 2019 Share Posted August 29, 2019 Brian Kirby - 2019-08-29 4:47 PM pelmetman - 2019-08-27 5:58 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-08-27 5:50 PM The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland can implement a reunification referendum under the Belfast Agreement, but only when it seems that there is a majority in favour. Looks to me like you've answered your own question Brian ;-) .......... Quite. No majority in favour of re-unification for a number of years yet, and a high risk in triggering the referendum before a positive outcome is assured. Referendum becalmed, no wind, so your kite won't fly. In the meantime???? Little grey cells? Looks like you need to try using yours Brian :D ........... https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47170711 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fast Pat Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 pelmetman - 2019-08-29 10:58 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-08-29 4:47 PM pelmetman - 2019-08-27 5:58 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-08-27 5:50 PM The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland can implement a reunification referendum under the Belfast Agreement, but only when it seems that there is a majority in favour. Looks to me like you've answered your own question Brian ;-) .......... Quite. No majority in favour of re-unification for a number of years yet, and a high risk in triggering the referendum before a positive outcome is assured. Referendum becalmed, no wind, so your kite won't fly. In the meantime???? Little grey cells? Looks like you need to try using yours Brian :D ........... https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47170711 Nurse, nurse. He's doing it again. Look we've all explained to you on numerous occasions that yes, Catholics breed like rabbit's, but they still have to get to 18 before those bunnies can vote, about 2029 on current estimates before they have a electing majority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 Fast Pat - 2019-08-30 1:14 AM pelmetman - 2019-08-29 10:58 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-08-29 4:47 PM pelmetman - 2019-08-27 5:58 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-08-27 5:50 PM The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland can implement a reunification referendum under the Belfast Agreement, but only when it seems that there is a majority in favour. Looks to me like you've answered your own question Brian ;-) .......... Quite. No majority in favour of re-unification for a number of years yet, and a high risk in triggering the referendum before a positive outcome is assured. Referendum becalmed, no wind, so your kite won't fly. In the meantime???? Little grey cells? Looks like you need to try using yours Brian :D ........... https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47170711 Nurse, nurse. He's doing it again. Look we've all explained to you on numerous occasions that yes, Catholics breed like rabbit's, but they still have to get to 18 before those bunnies can vote, about 2029 on current estimates before they have a electing majority. Your forgetting about all those whinging whining Remoaners bunnies that have the vote in NI ;-) .......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 pelmetman - 2019-08-29 10:58 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-08-29 4:47 PM pelmetman - 2019-08-27 5:58 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-08-27 5:50 PM The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland can implement a reunification referendum under the Belfast Agreement, but only when it seems that there is a majority in favour. Looks to me like you've answered your own question Brian ;-) .......... Quite. No majority in favour of re-unification for a number of years yet, and a high risk in triggering the referendum before a positive outcome is assured. Referendum becalmed, no wind, so your kite won't fly. In the meantime???? Little grey cells? Looks like you need to try using yours Brian :D ........... https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47170711 Very reassuring Dave! :-D I'm just wondering if you actually read that Feb 2019 BBC report? It is a risk that might follow Brexit. Just read the relevant part of the Belfast agreement, and then ask yourself if, following Brexit, so after the touch paper has been lit, a (possibly) Conservative government would risk a referendum on re-unification of Ireland if it had any doubt at all that the result would be to re-unify? The outcome of that referendum is too uncertain at present to risk. After we leave (assuming we do) opinion in NI might shift, but if the militias use that as their excuse to let rip, then any prospect of holding a bomb-free referendum disappears. You are clinging to a straw that is already submerged! The probabilities simply don't stack up. I can't see any prospect of your "with one bound he was free" thinking becoming reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 pelmetman - 2019-08-27 7:01 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-08-27 6:48 PM The nearest point of Britain (the Mull of Kintyre) to Northern Ireland is about 12.5 miles distant. From the coast near Belfast is about the same as from Folkestone to Cap Gris Nez. From a distance point of view making the crossing in a rubber boat from NI to the Scottish coast would therefore seem easier than from Calais, the land is less densely populated, so less chance of being spotted, but suitable sea conditions are undoubtedly less common. So in the Wacky World of Brian :D .......... Migrants are now going to paddle across to Ireland........then sneak through NI so that they can paddle across to Scotland 8-) 8-) 8-) ....... Anyone who does that deserves a medal...........and locking up in a institution for the dangerously insane >:-) ........ Probably, but who, apart from Dave, is suggesting that migrants are going to paddle from France to Ireland, carry their dinghy surreptitiously from Cork to Monaghan, sneak it into Armagh, tote it up to Belfast, and then paddle it across to Scotland? Eh? I was illustrating, (in reply to one point in jumpstart's post, which I included in full) that NI to Scotland is no further than France to UK. As I said in the following paragraph (the one it seems you didn't read! :-)), why do that when you could smuggle yourself onto a ferry, as at Dover. There is no point in selectively quoting parts of an argument you haven't read or understood, and then arguing that they are absurd, when the absurdity is obvious and intentional. That absurdity was, as gently as possible, my point. It isn't going to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 jumpstart - 2019-08-27 8:19 PM Good points Brian, bear in mind Ireland is not part of Schengen. No, so they'd have to get around Irish immigration to get into Ireland, as they do with UK immigration to get into the UK. However, once (if :-)) UK leaves the EU, I assume UK border controls will become more difficult to get around, and then alternative routes that are presently unattractive seem to me likely to become more attractive. That takes us back to the NI-Ireland border problem. Brexiters say "no" to border controls, so as NI is part of the UK, and there are no border checks on internal ferries from NI to UK, it seems to me likely to become a long, but relatively fruitful route. One then has to ask the question, if the migrants want to get to UK via Ireland, even with Ireland outside Schengen, what incentive is there for the Irish (who will in any case be miffed post Brexit), to go out of their way to stop them getting into NI? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 jumpstart - 2019-08-29 1:02 PM No don’t see that. Can’t see that there will be more illegal immigrants arriving in Ireland as they would be going through immigration and so would be sent back. As you have already said assylam seekers have to go to first country they arrive in and that won’t be Ireland. Anyway immigration was never for me a issue that determined stay or leave. There are so many parts to the Eu that don’t work. Common agricultural policy,Fisheries policy, Foreign policy and so on. Trade with Eu ...fine but that’s it. But, illegals by definition won't have gone through immigration, any more than those who get into UK do. They either go into the "black" labour market, or claim asylum (or refugee status) once on UK soil. Same will apply in Ireland except that, as do the EU states generally, it is more convenient if they remain "invisible" en-route and pass into another state. That seems to be why so many fetch up near Calais. They aim for the UK because it has a "successful" economy, they speak a bit of English, and/or they have relatives in UK. If the Irish pounce on them in Ireland, they will be likely to claim asylum or refugee status in Ireland and then, if successfully settled in Ireland, they can presumably take advantage of the Common Travel Area agreements to pass into NI, and so the mainland, unchallenged. So long as no-one "sees" them they will leave for the UK anyhow, so what would incentivise Ireland to arrest them, and then take on the cost and admin of processing them, before they in any case leave for the UK? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumpstart Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 My understanding was that asylum has to be claimed in the first safe country,which won’t be Ireland or uk. In Ireland if you are not Eu then you go through immigration. To be honest immigration is not a major issue to me. The way all the politicians Eu & uk have gone about this is exhausting.I hope someone comes up with an agreeable solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 jumpstart - 2019-08-30 3:25 PM My understanding was that asylum has to be claimed in the first safe country,which won’t be Ireland or uk. In Ireland if you are not Eu then you go through immigration. To be honest immigration is not a major issue to me. The way all the politicians Eu & uk have gone about this is exhausting.I hope someone comes up with an agreeable solution. Kind of, yes - but see this link http://tinyurl.com/y2tjjkft for the detail, as it is not that cut and dried. The biggest problem under present circumstances is that the countries that are most frequently entered by migrants from the Middle East/Africa are among the least equipped economically to deal with them. A further problem is that numerous migrants enter "under the radar", so no-one can process their claims. The EU system needs reforming and clarifying, but under present circumstances this is judged impractical as the main problem has become one of dealing with the numbers and trying to arrange for fair dispersal around the EU. Not surprisingly, few countries want substantial numbers of refugees who do not speak their language, who are likely to be expensive to house and feed, who are unlikely to contribute economically to the country for a number of years, and whose religious and cultural differences leave them liable to attract hostility from native populations. So, if they say they want to reach some other country they become unseen while they pass on. No-one foresaw the numbers who might arrive, nor the condensed timescale within which they might come. The EU states are inevitably attractive to those fleeing persecution or war in their own countries, because they offer peace, stability, security, and opportunity that are not available at home. So, until events elsewhere are settled, they will continue to come, by whatever means they can find/afford, however dangerous those means may be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 Brian Kirby - 2019-08-30 9:35 AM The outcome of that referendum is too uncertain at present to risk. A perfect example of why folk like you hate referendums and democracy *-) ........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 pelmetman - 2019-08-30 7:24 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-08-30 9:35 AM The outcome of that referendum is too uncertain at present to risk. A perfect example of why folk like you hate referendums and democracy *-) ........... So you would be happy to have another referendum then *-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 Brian Kirby - 2019-08-30 11:18 AM They aim for the UK because it has a "successful" economy They pass through countries with successful economies From what I have heard Illegals aim for Britain's black market economy and comparatively unregulated labour market so they can stay under the radar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted August 31, 2019 Share Posted August 31, 2019 John52 - 2019-08-30 11:06 PM pelmetman - 2019-08-30 7:24 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-08-30 9:35 AM The outcome of that referendum is too uncertain at present to risk. A perfect example of why folk like you hate referendums and democracy *-) ........... So you would be happy to have another referendum then *-) Yep ;-) ..........In 40+ years :D ...........That's how long I had to wait *-) ........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barryd999 Posted August 31, 2019 Share Posted August 31, 2019 pelmetman - 2019-08-31 8:14 AM John52 - 2019-08-30 11:06 PM pelmetman - 2019-08-30 7:24 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-08-30 9:35 AM The outcome of that referendum is too uncertain at present to risk. A perfect example of why folk like you hate referendums and democracy *-) ........... So you would be happy to have another referendum then *-) Yep ;-) ..........In 40+ years :D ...........That's how long I had to wait *-) ........ Bullsh1t. You along with 17.4 million others only started harping on about the EU because your sh1t sheet rags brainwashed you with years of anti EU crap. I keep asking the same question on here for what seems like a lifetime asking for personal reasons how being in the EU has made your life so bad that you would want to leave and so far not a single valid answer. Cue the replies about "United states of Europe, drain on our services, Funny foreigners taking over" etc etc, same kak from the Mail from the last twenty years. I bet nobody dares state its anti democratic though after the stunts they are supporting now coming out of number 10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumpstart Posted August 31, 2019 Share Posted August 31, 2019 Oh boy ...where to start. It’s wasn’t about what made life so bad,it’s the fact that it doesn’t work. I voted to leave as I did not agree with the way it is run and the broken policies. The Eu will not act to stop 25 million song birds being shot in the Med each year. They will not act to stop bull fights. They continue the travelling circus of moving parliament from Brussels to Strasbourg every other week costing 114 million euros of OUR money every year.. I don’t agree with the Common agricultural policy.i don’t agree with the Fisheries policy, foreign policy is a mess,I don’t want an Eu army, I don’t want to fund more east European countries joining. The Eu ‘s idea of democracy was when the vote went against them they insisted on further voting to get the result they wanted. We won’t mention immigration as they have absolutely no idea at all. I could go on and on... the question you have to ask is if given the choice would you vote to stay with a broken mafia like institution or try for a change. Parliament is suspended every year and has been for 20 days before so absolutely nothing to do with democracy. Everybody in the world says trying to do a deal with the Eu is excruciating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
747 Posted August 31, 2019 Share Posted August 31, 2019 Wot 'e said goes for me too Barry. ;-) I don't want to be federalised. :-( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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