TheFrenchConnection Posted August 8, 2023 Share Posted August 8, 2023 I suspect this will end up on a FIAT technical site but perhaps someone here will be able to help and throw some light on this long saga so please bear with me. It's a Challenger A Class on 2.3 Multijet Ducato base, registered April 2015 so could be a 2014 chassis, problems started at about 55,000km (around 35,000 miles). A local independant garage did an oil change, air cleaner and fuel filter change. The tank was lowest I have ever allowed it to go and I had to fill at a truck pump for the first time. Almost immediately the EML illuminated with no apparent loss of power. Returned to the garage whuch found no codes and turned the EML, out. Vehicle running normally. About 100km later - EML on, vehicle in limp mode, 'Check Fuel Filter' message. No codes recorded but this was with my simple code reader. Erased the non-existant codes to return to garage, which diagnosed faulty sensor on the filter, which they replaced. Long story short the EML, limp mode and 'Check Fuel Filter' message continued to return several more times, even after the garage replaced the filter itself - but the intervals were increasing. Same lack of codes, but 'clearing' them restored performance. Garage washes its hands of the problem and says go to a FIAT professional for diagnosis. But next... twice, EML, limp mode 'Check Engine' message but this time codes P00402 (EGR flow excessive) as a Current fault and P0401 (EGR Flow Insufficient) as a Pending fault. OK, so now it's the EGR. So while waiting to get to the Fiat Professional I added Bardahl's EGR cleaner and we did over 150km with no problem before loss of power at low revs, but no EML, no limp mode. Low-end power returned after about 10km and everything back to normal. No codes recorded. No trouble for over 300km (including the FIAT 'nothing found' diagnosis) before the same loss of power at low revs which cleared after an hour's stop with no codes recorded and the vehicle running well afterwards. I'm thinking that this could all link back to the almost empty tank and/or dirty fuel from the commercial pump, with the problem moving back along the line. Is this temporary loss of low-end power after about 300km something to do with the DPF and regeneration? Any ideas, theories or even wild guesses would be most welcome - it's getting on my nerves! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Labby Posted August 8, 2023 Share Posted August 8, 2023 You could try replacing the engine/gearbox to chassis earth cable (or adding another) as these have been known to cause strange electrical / sensor faults when the terminal to cable internal connection becomes poor. Cheap enough and worth trying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onecal Posted August 9, 2023 Share Posted August 9, 2023 (edited) Hi Maybe good advise to change your oil and oil filter to correct spec' as well It just may be a combination of factors of contaminated fuel also . Get a good diagnostic check and repair DPF with a clean ( it may have a very high soot level) and all should be well The key here is a good diagnostic check first ! Regards Edited August 9, 2023 by onecal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheFrenchConnection Posted August 9, 2023 Author Share Posted August 9, 2023 Thanks for the advice - unfortunately the FIAT diagnostics didn't show up anything although the camper seemed to run better afterwards (and bizarrely the slightly glowing warning lights seem to have gone out - don't ask me!) possibly as the current misbehaviour isn't triggering the EML. Oil and filter (and fuel filter) are new, about 2km before the first EML! I've tried running a good distance at higher revs to try to trigger a re-gen but haven't been out since so don't know whether that's helped. How do you go about a DPF clean other than a re-gen? I have a tin of Bardahl's Décrassant which, among other things, claims to clean the particle filter so we'll try that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onecal Posted August 9, 2023 Share Posted August 9, 2023 (edited) You will have to see what the soot levels are first !, if it is very high for safety it may not start a regen you need to have it cleaned manually. Then make sure after a regen (if then needed, hopefully not ) or cleaning to ensure an oil and filter change of the correct spec is carried out as the old oil now may not be the correct spec' and may be contaminated Just a question to both the OP and yourself What is the outside temp reading ? Is it working correctly? Regards Edited August 9, 2023 by onecal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheFrenchConnection Posted August 9, 2023 Author Share Posted August 9, 2023 Thanks. How do you establish the soot levels, would that have been something the diagnostics would have picked up? The outside temperature has been relatively low, between 21° and 25°, and the display seems to be fairly accurate. Coolant temperature is reliably half-a-needle's width below the mid-way mark. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onecal Posted August 9, 2023 Share Posted August 9, 2023 Hi Yes the diagnostic tool , it will show you the soot level readings , Its good that the outside temp is working OK as it does cause some issues If soot levels are high a manual clean is best Afterwards always ensure to change your oil and filter after cleaning or regen' re high soot levels Regards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rayc Posted August 9, 2023 Share Posted August 9, 2023 Is a 2014/15 Ducato Euro 4 or 5 likely to have a DPF? I thought the DPF, together with the ability to regen was introduced at euro 6 around the end of 2016? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheFrenchConnection Posted August 9, 2023 Author Share Posted August 9, 2023 Thanks again that's a great help. The diagnostics were carried out by a FIAT Professional after all the filter/dpf hassle but before the first 'low power, no EML' situation. They found nothing amiss, so the soot is probably not excessively high? (As an aside they didn't charge as they found nothing. Remarkable - particularly in France!) How complicated is a manual clean and is it a task for a (different) local guy who I trust or the FIAT Professional who is 65km away? (rural France is very rural!) I'd prefer to get this sorted properly, so a clean followed by an oil/filter change seems like good insurance. Is there any great risk to a 300km round trip away to see whether the cleaner is working or we get anther low-rev problem? Sorry, one more question, how do you know if there's been a re-gen, do you lose power during it? Sorry for all these question and for your help. Modern diesels are new ground for me - I can sort problems on my MGB without diagnostics! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onecal Posted August 9, 2023 Share Posted August 9, 2023 No need to do any clean if it's not high ???, you can as "rayc" posted Have you one ,,,,,, Check you actually have them Look underneath the vehicle? If it was diagnosed properly as in my earlier post you should have been informed of all the faults Get a good diagnostic test done first , for high soot levels and high back pressure or pressure differential and have your EGR checked and cleaned and all pipework checked over for leaks Be very careful forcing a regen if soot levels are very high , I always recommend a manual clean and oil and filter change afterwards Regards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rayc Posted August 9, 2023 Share Posted August 9, 2023 (edited) 3 hours ago, TheFrenchConnection said: Sorry, one more question, how do you know if there's been a re-gen, do you lose power during it? I am fairly certain that a 2014/15 Fiat Ducato does not have a DPF so there is no regeneration to worry about. It could be the last of the euro 4 which had a single catalytic convertor or a euro 5 which has a dual Catalytic Converters [ strictly speaking a pre catalytic converter and the final catalytic converter]. The DPF with its regeneration was introduced at Euro 6b in 2016 for 2017 model year and further developed in 2019 at euro 6b with DPF and ad blue. Edited August 9, 2023 by rayc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onecal Posted August 9, 2023 Share Posted August 9, 2023 Hi We await your reply TheFrenchConnection Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted August 12, 2023 Share Posted August 12, 2023 On 09/08/2023 at 21:23, rayc said: I am fairly certain that a 2014/15 Fiat Ducato does not have a DPF so there is no regeneration to worry about. It could be the last of the euro 4 which had a single catalytic convertor or a euro 5 which has a dual Catalytic Converters [ strictly speaking a pre catalytic converter and the final catalytic converter]. The DPF with its regeneration was introduced at Euro 6b in 2016 for 2017 model year and further developed in 2019 at euro 6b with DPF and ad blue. A DPF and regeneration was definitely standard for the 'X290' Ducatos that began to be manufactured in mid-2014. The motors were referred to (by Fiat) as being Euro 5+ compliant and the relevant Ducato Owner Handbook (Publication date: 09/14) includes a page about the DPF and regeneration. I owned an early X290 (2.3litre motor 150PS) and I well remember DPF regeneration taking place as I was driving on to a French campsite (and wondering what that strange noise was!) There was no 'owner/driver' means to force regeneration, but - as this YouTube video shows - it can be done with the appropriate equipment. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VZmUD4G3Hs Although earlier Ducato Owner Handbooks do not seem to have a DPF section, on-line comments suggest that Ducato X250 models with Euro 5 motors also had a DPF. This 2019 O&AL article https://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/motorhomes/articles/practical-advice/motorhome-advice-diesel-particulate-filters#:~:text=A well-serviced Fiat Ducato,regeneration that failed to complete. states Although this feature covers Fiat Ducato vehicles in particular, most of the content is equally appropriate for other makes and models built since 2012 when diesel particulate filters (DPFs) became mandatory in order to achieve Euro 5/V standard emissions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onecal Posted August 12, 2023 Share Posted August 12, 2023 Posted Wednesday at 18:01 No need to do any clean if it's not high ???, you can as "rayc" posted Have you one ,,,,,, Check you actually have them Look underneath the vehicle? If it was diagnosed properly as in my earlier post you should have been informed of all the faults Get a good diagnostic test done first , for high soot levels and high back pressure or pressure differential and have your EGR checked and cleaned and all pipework checked over for leaks Be very careful forcing a regen if soot levels are very high , I always recommend a manual clean and oil and filter change afterwards Regards Again we await your reply "TheFrenchConnection" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
breakaleg Posted August 14, 2023 Share Posted August 14, 2023 Just watched a u tube video and there was a gent who spent a small fortune trying to have his van fixed (blocked filter. Turned out to be the external temperature sensor in the offside mirror was missing (a fiat dealer had fitted a replacement mirror and it didn't have a sensor in it, just a hole where it should be) easy to check if it's there just a hole if it isn't of course, you could have a sensor there but just not working, in true fiat tradition, you just can't buy a replacement sensor. Apparently, the filter will not regenerate without the sensor. once the mirror was replaced and the filter cleaned ,it worked Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted August 14, 2023 Share Posted August 14, 2023 25 minutes ago, breakaleg said: Just watched a u tube video and there was a gent who spent a small fortune trying to have his van fixed (blocked filter. Turned out to be the external temperature sensor in the offside mirror was missing (a fiat dealer had fitted a replacement mirror and it didn't have a sensor in it, just a hole where it should be)... And the quick check give a way for this is no outside temperature reading on the dash. (I watched the same video and iirc this was how the guy spotted the fault). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onecal Posted August 14, 2023 Share Posted August 14, 2023 (edited) On 09/08/2023 at 15:06, onecal said: You will have to see what the soot levels are first !, if it is very high for safety it may not start a regen you need to have it cleaned manually. Then make sure after a regen (if then needed, hopefully not ) or cleaning to ensure an oil and filter change of the correct spec is carried out as the old oil now may not be the correct spec' and may be contaminated Just a question to both the OP and yourself What is the outside temp reading ? Is it working correctly? Regards Hi It's a very common fault with same . I have found many times as per my post attached .One then has to be very careful to actually check the soot levels and do a manual clean first before doing a forced regen(hopefully not needed) also always make sure to change your oil and filter afterwards Regards Edited August 14, 2023 by onecal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the1andonly Posted September 4, 2023 Share Posted September 4, 2023 The most important thing to remember is obd codes are only an indication of where the problem may be eg what country what you couid do to try to work out what street youre on you need to look at live data. Your garages may be looking at live data for a short period. May i suggest you get Multiecuscan for a windows laptop the simplest method is via gendan the distributors in the uk. Simple code readers do not speak fiat. As you suggest Fiatforum has a wealth of help including what you should be looking at to ease diagnosis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the1andonly Posted September 4, 2023 Share Posted September 4, 2023 Use this to create a template in Mltiecuscan it will work if a facelift x250 or a euro5 x290 save the csv file. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onecal Posted September 4, 2023 Share Posted September 4, 2023 (edited) Posted August 9 (edited) You will have to see what the soot levels are first !, if it is very high for safety it may not start a regen you need to have it cleaned manually. Then make sure after a regen (if then needed, hopefully not ) or cleaning to ensure an oil and filter change of the correct spec is carried out as the old oil now may not be the correct spec' and may be contaminated Just a question to both the OP and yourself What is the outside temp reading ? Is it working correctly? Hi We still await your reply TheFrenchConnection Edited September 4, 2023 by onecal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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