New front tyres required.

[flyboyprowler]

For some reason as yet unknown one of our front tyres (5 years old and 38000 miles) has part of the tread seemingly starting to break up. I will replace them, but probably change from the current Michelin Agilis Alpine tyres to a cross season tyre as we rarely travel in snow type conditions. We carry snow chains for front and rear tyres when required so a cross season tyre should suffice. 

Can anyone recommend a cross season tyre to replace the Agilis? Big van max 7.5 tonnes and around 10000 miles a year.

Just another thought. Is it legal to mix different makes of tyre as long as a single make is on one axel?

Edited October 17, 2023 by flyboyprowler
Added note

[Keithl]

Earlier this year I replaced all five tyres on our Sprinter based Auto Trail as they were over the ten year age limit recommended by Conti and had Continental VanContact All Season Tyres fitted as they are both M+S and 3PSFM along with a good fuel economy and sound rating.

When the fitter came to fit them he said he was glad I had not chosen Michelin as he was regularly seeing them fail in under five years, in fact those on his own van had only lasted four years before showing signs of breaking up!

So a recommendation for Conti and a thumbs down for Michelin.

Keith.

[Derek Uzzell]

flyboyprowler

It would be useful to know your motorhome's make, exact model and its build-year. Also the dimensions and load index of the tyres you need.

The UK regulations that cover the tyres of a UK-registered motorhome should apply (and be legal) wherever in Europe the vehicle is driven.

As the following two links show, the UK regulations are not particularly stringent 

https://www.justtyres.co.uk/tyre-tips/tyres-and-the-law#:~:text=You can fit different makes,tyres on the front axle.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/mot-inspection-manual-for-private-passenger-and-light-commercial-vehicles/5-axles-wheels-tyres-and-suspension#section-5-2-3

and there's nothing in the regulations to (legally) stop every tyre on a motorhome having a different manufacturer provided that the structure-related guidance in the MOT test manual is adhered to. (Good practice is another matter...)

This link is to a comparative test of 'campervan' all-seasons tyres

https://whattyre.com/news/a-tyre-for-every-destination-test-of-8-all-season-campervan-tyres/

[flyboyprowler]

Thank you Keith and Derek.

I am definitely going down the Conti route after reading the link to What Tyre, and hearing Keiths experience with the fitter. Our tyres are original fit from Niesmann and Bischoff and as we intend to keep our Flair for a few years yet, I will get the rest of the tyres checked locally which will probably end up with a HUGE bill. We are now registered in Spain and I think that as long as the tyres are the same make on individual axels, then you can have different makes fitted.

On a different subject, your replies did not come into my inbox so can you please advise if I need to tick a box for that to happen?

Thanks for the replies and thoughts

Ainsley

[Brian Kirby]

Just to say Ainsley, that both Keith and Derek are correct for UK, but I'm a little uncertain about what you actually intend doing, or whether you are currently in UK or Spain, or whether your van is now Spanish registered.  If the latter, what you can have fitted where will inevitably be dictated by Spanish rules.

In the UK, as Derek says, it is permissible to mix tyre makes across an axle, so long as the dimensions, load index and speed index all match.  And, for driving a UK registered vehicle outside UK, that combination is also legal.

However, a problem may arise if you get a flat outside the UK and the van carries a spare wheel with a tyre of a make different to any of those fitted to its running wheels.  Under these circumstances, if you would do your own wheel change, you will still be OK with the above mix.

But if in, view of the weight and size of your van, you would expect to call out a breakdown service to change the wheel, you may find the breakdown service refuses to fit the spare to any axle that has a tyre of a different make on the opposite end - even though the tyres are in all other respects identical as to size, speed, and load, ratings.

This will be because the national rules under which they work ban tyres of different makes on the same axle.  I have heard this particularly in France, where even tyre fitters at tyre depots insist that both tyres on a single axle must be identical in all respects including make and model.  In Spain I do not know but, from what you say above, it sounds a little as though their rules may fall somewhere between the two.

To be completely certain, under all circumstances and in all countries, your best bet will be to ensure that all tyres, including the spare, are of the same make, type, size, speed and load ratings.

So sorry, but if you want to minimise the inconveniences from a flat, and you want to switch from the present Michelin Agilis to Continental VanContact All Season, plus you would want to use a breakdown service to  change the wheel if you do get a flat, I think you'll really need to change all 5 tyres.  OUCH!  😞 

(And no, I don't/didn't work for either Michelin or Continental!  😄)

[Derek Uzzell]

5 hours ago, Brian Kirby said:

...This will be because the national rules under which they work ban tyres of different makes on the same axle.  I have heard this particularly in France, where even tyre fitters at tyre depots insist that both tyres on a single axle must be identical in all respects including make and model.  In Spain I do not know but, from what you say above, it sounds a little as though their rules may fall somewhere between the two...

This relates to the Spanish equivalent of the UK's MOT test

https://n332.es/tyres-and-the-itv/#:~:text=On the same axle%2C all,the ITV will be unfavourable.

Assuming the guidance is correct, the statement "On the same axle, all tires must be the same: same brand, model, dimensions, and type" - would make the Spanish requirement even more stringent than what seems to be the case in France.

(I have to say that insisting that all tyres on the same axle be identical makes more sense than insisting that they just have the same manufacturer.)

[Derek Uzzell]

9 hours ago, flyboyprowler said:

...On a different subject, your replies did not come into my inbox so can you please advise if I need to tick a box for that to happen?

I'm not familiar with the intricacies of the Invision Community platform that these forums now run on, and enquiries about the features are probably best posted to the Forum Support sub-forum (3rd sub-forum down on the Forums homepage.

However, you could try the following

1. Click on the bell icon to the right of +Create in the black horizontal stripe near the top of the forums homepage.

2. Then click on Notification Settings.

3. Then select Mentions & My Content.

You should then get this

Suggest you try ticking all four boxes and see what (if anything!) happens. If you get more than you want, you can always go back and un-tick the relevant boxes.

(It needs saying that I have not tested the above...)

[Brian Kirby]

19 minutes ago, Derek Uzzell said:

This relates to the Spanish equivalent of the UK's MOT test

https://n332.es/tyres-and-the-itv/#:~:text=On the same axle%2C all,the ITV will be unfavourable.

Assuming the guidance is correct, the statement "On the same axle, all tires must be the same: same brand, model, dimensions, and type" - which would make the Spanish requirement even more stringent than what seems to be the case in France.

(I have to say that insisting that all tyres on the same axle be identical makes more sense than insisting that they just have the same manufacturer.)

In case of confusion, my understanding is that, for tyres supplied/fitted in France, all tyres on the same axle must, indeed, be of the same size, speed and load rating, make and type (with the obvious exception of "space saver" spares).  I'm not claiming expertise, as my information is vicarious - 'though I believe from reliable sources. 

However, the features that are required to be identical in France seem tantamount to fully identical, as the only feature that would appear to be allowed to vary across an axle would be if the tyre manufacturer's name for the tyre in question were changed as a result of a minor development.

It might then seem a little unreasonable to insist that two tyres be bought where only one is actually required if the only variation between the two were, for example, that the original was a "Roadrunner", and the new tyre a "Roadrunner Mk2" - with the only difference being a slightly modified tread pattern to reduce tyre noise.

But, with my apologies if I'm misunderstanding you, I'm not, as above, claiming expertise in French tyre fitting regulations, just seeking to caution Ainsley regarding a sometimes problematic consequence of mixing tyres of identical specifications from different makers on the same axle, as is accepted in UK.

[John52]

I like Hankook Vantra LT

Only problem is you start off with 9mm of tread, wheras the expensive tyres usually have about 11mm

For another quids worth of rubber the Hankook would be as good as the expensive ones IMO.

But I guess the average motorhome will need new tyres before the treads are worn down anyway.

[flyboyprowler]

16 hours ago, Brian Kirby said:

In case of confusion, my understanding is that, for tyres supplied/fitted in France, all tyres on the same axle must, indeed, be of the same size, speed and load rating, make and type (with the obvious exception of "space saver" spares).  I'm not claiming expertise, as my information is vicarious - 'though I believe from reliable sources. 

However, the features that are required to be identical in France seem tantamount to fully identical, as the only feature that would appear to be allowed to vary across an axle would be if the tyre manufacturer's name for the tyre in question were changed as a result of a minor development.

It might then seem a little unreasonable to insist that two tyres be bought where only one is actually required if the only variation between the two were, for example, that the original was a "Roadrunner", and the new tyre a "Roadrunner Mk2" - with the only difference being a slightly modified tread pattern to reduce tyre noise.

But, with my apologies if I'm misunderstanding you, I'm not, as above, claiming expertise in French tyre fitting regulations, just seeking to caution Ainsley regarding a sometimes problematic consequence of mixing tyres of identical specifications from different makers on the same axle, as is accepted in UK.

Well, I hadn't considered the fact that effectively we would have to carry two spares if there were two makes of tyre on the van and this changes the perspective somewhat. I will probably start looking for Micheline Agilis now, but just change to an all season tyre rather than the Alpin winter tyre that is currently fitted. As you say, going over to Conti's would probably mean changing 7 tyres and that is PRICEY!!

The "ITV" in Spain is always a bit of a mare. We tow a trailer at times and get both van and trailer ITV'd at the same time. I need to check now if the authorities will allow a Michelin cross season tyre on the same axel as an Alpin. Watch this space!

Hopefully having followed Dereks advice and ticked the boxes, I should now get replies direct to my email.

Thanks for all the help guys!

Ainsley

[MikeF]

If fitting  all season tyre of a different manufacturer to the existing set,  that then  it's advisable to have the same tyres all round. If only two new tyres are fitted, they must be on the rear axle, regardless of which axle is the drive axle.

Ideally  tyres on the same axle should be same make and type.

This is not the requirement of any legislation  in the UK ,  but should be followed to have safe and predictable handling.

Mike

Edited October 19, 2023 by MikeF

[Derek Uzzell]

For the record, Ainsley's motorhome is a 2018 N+B Flair 830. This is an A-class design based on an Iveco heavyweight chassis with rear-wheel-drive and a twinned-wheel rear axle.

The motorhome is Spanish-registered.

[Brian Kirby]

9 hours ago, flyboyprowler said:

Well, I hadn't considered the fact that effectively we would have to carry two spares if there were two makes of tyre on the van and this changes the perspective somewhat. I will probably start looking for Micheline Agilis now, but just change to an all season tyre rather than the Alpin winter tyre that is currently fitted. As you say, going over to Conti's would probably mean changing 7 tyres and that is PRICEY!!

The "ITV" in Spain is always a bit of a mare. We tow a trailer at times and get both van and trailer ITV'd at the same time. I need to check now if the authorities will allow a Michelin cross season tyre on the same axel as an Alpin. Watch this space!

Hopefully having followed Dereks advice and ticked the boxes, I should now get replies direct to my email.

Thanks for all the help guys!

Ainsley

I think, Ainsley, in view of Derek's helpful explanation of your van, you will have to take advice on what can be fitted in Spain - where the van is registered.

The problem with the Alpin tyres (there are at least 3 varieties, 4, 5. and 6) is that they are a winter, or "snow", tyre, not recommended for use in summer as they are compounded for cold conditions (temperatures generally below 7C).

So, if your major mileage is not in winter, this may explain the Alpin tread breakup you mentioned above - probably due to overheating.

I therefore think all season tyres would probably be the better choice.  Michelin Cross Climate Camper are 3PMSF marked, and should be street legal even even in those areas where that is the minimum tyre rating accepted in winter.  You might also consider the Continental All Season CrossContact, or the VanContact mentioned above by Keith (There are others! 🙂).  Much will depend on the size, weight, and speed rating for your tyres, and which tyre makes/types are made in the required size by whom.  That is where I think the advice of the fitters will be beneficial.

Regarding the twin wheel fitting at the rear, I have no idea whether it is legal to mix types or makes of tyres on the same side of the rear axle, but would assume not, and in any case would think it unwise to do so.

Having said all the above, I think you may ultimately be stuck with having to get 7 tyres as - the standard advice being to put the tyres with the highest grip (or the newest) on the rear - the Alpin's would have to be retained for the rear (because I think the advice will probably be not to have winter tyres (the Alpins) at the front even where the rears are new "all season tyres".  Whether the Alpins on the rear with the new "all season" tyres at the front may be acceptable/legal, I have no idea.  But I'm guessing - proper advice needed!

Whichever way you slice that, if you carry a spare it must, as I understand it, be a match for either the front or the rear tyres (but ideally both), and cannot be used across the axle from a non-matching tyre, meaning that your spare would only be usable if you got a flat in whichever of the service tyres matches the spare.  And we all know about Sod's law, don't we!  😄  So, if six tyres have to be changed because you can't mix "winter" and "all season" tyres front and rear, you'll also have to change the present Alpin on the spare or it will be useless if needed.

As your van is Spanish registered I think you will probably find the decision is in any case made for you by the Spanish regulations regarding what tyre makes and types can be mixed front and rear and, in the case of the spare, across the same axle.

Be that as it may, for the greatest convenience if you do get a flat tyre, you either need to match the worn existing tyres like for like with new Alpin tyres, or, I think, change all 7 tyres to an "all season" type.  Then, whichever option you choose, if you do get a flat, whoever you turn to to change the wheel shouldn't start quibbling about whether or not the tyre on the spare can be mixed across the axle with the tyre on the other end!

Let us know the eventual answer, as someone else may have a similar problem in future.

[flyboyprowler]

10 hours ago, Brian Kirby said:

I think, Ainsley, in view of Derek's helpful explanation of your van, you will have to take advice on what can be fitted in Spain - where the van is registered.

The problem with the Alpin tyres (there are at least 3 varieties, 4, 5. and 6) is that they are a winter, or "snow", tyre, not recommended for use in summer as they are compounded for cold conditions (temperatures generally below 7C).

So, if your major mileage is not in winter, this may explain the Alpin tread breakup you mentioned above - probably due to overheating.

I therefore think all season tyres would probably be the better choice.  Michelin Cross Climate Camper are 3PMSF marked, and should be street legal even even in those areas where that is the minimum tyre rating accepted in winter.  You might also consider the Continental All Season CrossContact, or the VanContact mentioned above by Keith (There are others! 🙂).  Much will depend on the size, weight, and speed rating for your tyres, and which tyre makes/types are made in the required size by whom.  That is where I think the advice of the fitters will be beneficial.

Regarding the twin wheel fitting at the rear, I have no idea whether it is legal to mix types or makes of tyres on the same side of the rear axle, but would assume not, and in any case would think it unwise to do so.

Having said all the above, I think you may ultimately be stuck with having to get 7 tyres as - the standard advice being to put the tyres with the highest grip (or the newest) on the rear - the Alpin's would have to be retained for the rear (because I think the advice will probably be not to have winter tyres (the Alpins) at the front even where the rears are new "all season tyres".  Whether the Alpins on the rear with the new "all season" tyres at the front may be acceptable/legal, I have no idea.  But I'm guessing - proper advice needed!

Whichever way you slice that, if you carry a spare it must, as I understand it, be a match for either the front or the rear tyres (but ideally both), and cannot be used across the axle from a non-matching tyre, meaning that your spare would only be usable if you got a flat in whichever of the service tyres matches the spare.  And we all know about Sod's law, don't we!  😄  So, if six tyres have to be changed because you can't mix "winter" and "all season" tyres front and rear, you'll also have to change the present Alpin on the spare or it will be useless if needed.

As your van is Spanish registered I think you will probably find the decision is in any case made for you by the Spanish regulations regarding what tyre makes and types can be mixed front and rear and, in the case of the spare, across the same axle.

Be that as it may, for the greatest convenience if you do get a flat tyre, you either need to match the worn existing tyres like for like with new Alpin tyres, or, I think, change all 7 tyres to an "all season" type.  Then, whichever option you choose, if you do get a flat, whoever you turn to to change the wheel shouldn't start quibbling about whether or not the tyre on the spare can be mixed across the axle with the tyre on the other end!

Let us know the eventual answer, as someone else may have a similar problem in future.

Thank you Brian for the comprehensive reply as ever. I had a reply from Niesmann and they now fit the Conti Vanco all season tyre as standard, so that would seem to be the way to go. However, having also spoken to the very helpful man at Continental, it seems that a camping tyre with the strengthened side walls for long term parking is not available for a van of our size as the chassis is normally used on commercial vans. He has given me the details of the most suitable tyres to fit and the next problem is finding a fitter with the capability and size to change our tyres. That is todays job so any recommendations MOST gratefully received, as the likes of National, Kwik Fit can only cope up to 3.5 tonnes. Bit of a nightmare really!

Ainsley

[snail]

22 minutes ago, flyboyprowler said:

Thank you Brian for the comprehensive reply as ever. I had a reply from Niesmann and they now fit the Conti Vanco all season tyre as standard, so that would seem to be the way to go. However, having also spoken to the very helpful man at Continental, it seems that a camping tyre with the strengthened side walls for long term parking is not available for a van of our size as the chassis is normally used on commercial vans. He has given me the details of the most suitable tyres to fit and the next problem is finding a fitter with the capability and size to change our tyres. That is todays job so any recommendations MOST gratefully received, as the likes of National, Kwik Fit can only cope up to 3.5 tonnes. Bit of a nightmare really!

Ainsley

Hi, assume you are in the UK as mentioning these tyre fitters above, we have a local tyre fitter called Ski Tyres, if you Google them you will see they do commercial fitting, there must be others try Google commercial tyre fitters you may find a place large enough to cope with your Motor home then, best of luck 

[Derek Uzzell]

As I said above

It would be useful to know your motorhome's make, exact model and its build-year. Also the dimensions and load index of the tyres you need.

It LOOKS like Iveco Daily models have 225/65 R16 specification tyres and - to cope with the high weight load - the heavier chassis have a twinned-wheel rear axle.

The Iveco manual SHOULD provide the specification of the tyres that would be suitable for a Flair 830 and a Spanish tyre-fitting outlet that deals with trucks should have no difficulty coping with a large motorhome.

[flyboyprowler]

27 minutes ago, Derek Uzzell said:

As I said above

It would be useful to know your motorhome's make, exact model and its build-year. Also the dimensions and load index of the tyres you need.

It LOOKS like Iveco Daily models have 225/65 R16 specification tyres and - to cope with the high weight load - the heavier chassis have a twinned-wheel rear axle.

The Iveco manual SHOULD provide the specification of the tyres that would be suitable for a Flair 830 and a Spanish tyre-fitting outlet that deals with trucks should have no difficulty coping with a large motorhome.

 

17 hours ago, Derek Uzzell said:

For the record, Ainsley's motorhome is a 2018 N+B Flair 830. This is an A-class design based on an Iveco heavyweight chassis with rear-wheel-drive and a twinned-wheel rear axle.

The motorhome is Spanish-registered.

Derek, you got it spot on the first time. I have just spoken to Kwik Fit and they are able to change my tyres, so watch this space

[Brian Kirby]

2 hours ago, flyboyprowler said:

Thank you Brian for the comprehensive reply as ever. I had a reply from Niesmann and they now fit the Conti Vanco all season tyre as standard, so that would seem to be the way to go. However, having also spoken to the very helpful man at Continental, it seems that a camping tyre with the strengthened side walls for long term parking is not available for a van of our size as the chassis is normally used on commercial vans. He has given me the details of the most suitable tyres to fit and the next problem is finding a fitter with the capability and size to change our tyres. That is todays job so any recommendations MOST gratefully received, as the likes of National, Kwik Fit can only cope up to 3.5 tonnes. Bit of a nightmare really!

Ainsley

Sorry about the "comprehensive" reply, Ainsley.  It was a case of "I was going to write a short reply, but didn't have time so I wrote a long one"!  I believe I'm in quite good company with that excuse!  😄  Glad you seem to have got it all sorted.

[Steve928]

On 19/10/2023 at 11:24, MikeF said:

 If only two new tyres are fitted, they must be on the rear axle, regardless of which axle is the drive axle.

No, there's no 'must' about it.

It's become a common recommendation, based upon the idea that the world will be a safer place overall if all vehicles tend towards to under rather than oversteer. It's in a similar vein to the ETRTO 80p.s.i camper tyre recommendation that calculates that overall there will be less tyre-related accidents if everyone over-inflates their tyres (above the pressure required to support the load they are carrying) to cater for the minority who overload them.

Intelligent and competent drivers are perfectly free to choose to ignore both recommendations.

[Deneb]

1 hour ago, Steve928 said:

No, there's no 'must' about it.

It's become a common recommendation, based upon the idea that the world will be a safer place overall if all vehicles tend towards to under rather than oversteer. It's in a similar vein to the ETRTO 80p.s.i camper tyre recommendation that calculates that overall there will be less tyre-related accidents if everyone over-inflates their tyres (above the pressure required to support the load they are carrying) to cater for the minority who overload them.

Intelligent and competent drivers are perfectly free to choose to ignore both recommendations.

I have in my time had a part in investigating several fatal collisions and numerous other incidents where tyres with a lesser ability to grip fitted to the rear axle, and not necessarily severely worn, were an apparent contributory factor in a sudden loss of control. Even an intelligent and competent driver can find themselves in a situation where they might be driving on a loose or slippery surface and/or have to make a coarse or sudden steering or braking input due perhaps to the actions of another road user or another unforeseen circumstance.

As one of my motor vehicle technology textbooks stated, oversteer induced by such configurations can result in a very sudden and unexpected loss of control which might be vicious and difficult if not impossible to control, as also can significant underinflation of rear tyres.

Understeer is generally much easier to control, often requiring only slight additional steering input which may not even be noticeable to the driver in many circumstances. A tendency towards understeer has been a conscious design preference for road vehicle handling for many years.

[Derek Uzzell]

9 hours ago, flyboyprowler said:

 

Derek, you got it spot on the first time. I have just spoken to Kwik Fit and they are able to change my tyres, so watch this space

Make sure they replace the current valves and fit good quality replacements that are designed to handle the highish tyre-pressures that I'm guessing you use.