veletron Posted March 27 Author Share Posted March 27 I never received a paper manual with my vehicle unfortunately, but I have read elsewhere that since 2015, fiat started stating 2.9L for my gearbox also. Later versions having been stamped 2.9L on the casing. The gearbox never changed spec, just the oil amount changed. Looking back in time, there was a similar occurrence on the older x244 due to inadequate lubrication of 5th gear when the previous stated amount of oil was used. When I get home I will measure what came out and stick the same in using Experya. The fact that the motor parts retailers list geartech for my engine shows the confusion. I will treat the previous change as a gearbox flush!! If I had gotten it done at my usual garage (note that I don't use fiat garages, too expensive), I would have no clue what they had put in there! Thanks to all who responded with useful info! I should prob have had this discussion before changing out the oil lol! Karen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 10 minutes ago, veletron said: I never received a paper manual with my vehicle unfortunately.... I don't know whether you have a downloaded copy, but if not, if you PM me (or I suspect Derek) your VIN number, I can probably provide you a Fiat download link from eLum to the manual they think matches that VIN. (which, given Fiat's record, is probably no guarantee🙄) . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 57 minutes ago, Derek Uzzell said: I could equally ask (onecal) "Why do you keep repeating exactly the same thing, when once is plenty adequate?" I have already asked onecal that many times, but never got an answer Just more repetition, distraction and obfuscation, leading to another interminably long and boring thread On some forums repetition liked that is moderated - (they call it 'flooding') Perhaps you could consider moderating it here also? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 1 hour ago, Derek Uzzell said: What do you suggest Veletron should say to Fiat? "I've put 2.9 litres of oil my Ducato's gearbox when the Owner Handbook says 2.7 litres and used a different TUTELA oil to the original. Is that going to be OK?" Do you seriously believe that would be productive or would Fiat just say RTFM? My guess is they would say take it to a Fiat workshop - they even say that when you just want to charge the battery!! I doubt if they get asked about gearbox oil because changing it is not on the service schedule. So they would only put oil in after a rebuild in which case it would have been cleaned out so take the full 2.9 litres. You wouldn't have to guess how much of the old oil had been left in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 Except - according to the Ducato Owner Handbook relevant to Veletron's motorhome and its motor - the gearbox capacity is 2.7 litres and the 2.9 litres capacity applies to a different gearbox. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve928 Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 (edited) I see that Peugeot are still recommending 2.9L for the same gearbox, in fact 2.9L + 0.3L max. in the workshop manual. Total (PSA's oil partner obviously) state 2.9L/3.2L with the clarification '3.2L after rebuild, 2.9L refill' suggesting that 0.3L doesn't drain (stuck to the internals presumably). I suppose that attached to the PUMA 2.2 or BlueHDi DW10/12 the gearbox may sit at a different angle to when attached to an FPT2.3 - perhaps that explains the difference. Edited March 27 by Steve928 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onecal Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 (edited) Derek With the greatest respect ,I really think the manufacture should be the first port of call if one such as "Veletron " has such a worry . That is the reason I simply asked So are you saying her post was so ridiculous they may in your opinion reply with (as your quote below in bold) So what are we to take from your posts the manufacture of a product if you have an issue or question , that they are just not worth contacting ? 3 hours ago, Derek Uzzell said: Do you seriously believe that would be productive or would Fiat just say RTFM? 3 hours ago, Derek Uzzell said: Edited March 27 by onecal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 Veletron is far from a technical novice and, while I now appreciate why there might have been confusion about the gearbox oils and capacity (as no hardcopy Ducato Owner Handbook was provided with her motorhome) the handbooks on the ELUM website clearly state that the original TUTELA oil for the manual gearbox fitted to 2015 Multijet 130 motors was the EXPERYA variant and that 2.7 litres was the stated capacity. Handbook-wise, this continues to be the case until all the 2.3litre motors gained AdBlue when the oil and capacity information altered. After buying a 2015-built 'light' Ducato X290-based Rapido motorhome with the 150 motor and manual transmission, I recall asking a Fiat technical guru at an NEC show if the gearing of X290 'light' Ducatos with the then-optional 16" wheels and larger tyres was revised accordingly. He asked what motor my motorhome had and, when I said the 150, told me that this had a much better gearbox than the 130 (3-rail design rather than 2-rail?) and he would check about the gearing. He subsequently told me that the gearing was the same whether the Ducato had 16" or 15" wheels, but, having now looked more closely at the Ducato handbooks, I suspect that he was wrong about which gearbox my motorhome had. As I couldn't do anything about the gearbox fitted to my Rapido and I had no intention of changing its 15" wheels or its gearbox oil, this information was of no particular value to me. However, as I did have a hardcopy Ducato handbook, that's what I would have used as the data-source if I was going to change the gearbox oil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
veletron Posted March 27 Author Share Posted March 27 @onecal I don't have a 'such a worry' about this. If I did then I would not have set off for three weeks in the van! I would say that I have a 'query' about the gearbox oil, that has garnered both facts and opinions that I shall consider. Your opinion is just one of those presented, and presenting the same opinion over and over does not add to its validity in any way! Your opinion is no more valid or invalid than any others expressed here. Anyway, I got my answers so thanks again to all! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onecal Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 Thanks for your reply, it really looked as if you had a worry as to issue as I had no idea as to your technical experience or not only as Derek points out in his post . My apologies if I indeed I have misread your initial concern and I acknowledge my input is my opinion same as others here that post on line. That is indeed your right on how you wish to take those opinions or not. I also do not in anyway wish to override the expertise and advice of the manufacture of the product involved . Hopefully this clarifies my post to you Regards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 3 hours ago, Derek Uzzell said: .......but, having now looked more closely at the Ducato handbooks, I suspect that he was wrong about which gearbox my motorhome had. My (only partially verified) understanding is that it was the initial Euro6 version of the 150 engine that was fitted with the heavier duty M38/M40 manual box, not the Euro5. Though power output remained broadly similar to the Euro5, the maximum torque output was increased, (up from 350 to 380Nm) and this exceed the margins of the MLGU box. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 Yes, that's also my understanding now. My Rapido's Ducato Multijet 150 motor was described as 'Euro 5+' by Fiat (but that didn't make it Euro 6). As you've said, this had 350Nm of torque and this rose to 380Nm when the Euro 6 version was introduced in 2016. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeF Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 Having rebuilt a number of the MLGU 6 speed 2 shaft gearbox, I can confirm the box is marked 'fill 2.9l'. There is always some oil remaining after draining, perhaps 0.1l. The listed Experya is non synthetic, whilst the Matryx and Geartech are synthetic and thus stable at higher stress and temperature than non synthetic. The most important is the GL4 rating, which specifies no/low sulfur and phosphorus content. Thus GL4+ and GL5 should be avoided. The MLGU 6 speed, 2 shaft box is not very robust and is operating near its torque limit. My view it that it needs a synthetic oil to extend its useful life. The bearings supporting the gear shafts are quite small compared to other gearbox designs and have high loadings. There is little difference between Geartech and Matryx synthetic gear oils, so I cannot see any reason to change. Petronas are constantly renaming their transmission oils, currently the Tutela Multi MTF 700 seems a possible alternative. Note the same gearbox internals are used on the Relay and Boxer, using different brands of transmission oil, so oil type is not critical, ( other than GL4). Regarding oil quantity, if its a drain and refill then 2.8l seems a good compromise. A rebuilt box would need 2.9l. Mike 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted March 28 Share Posted March 28 (edited) 7 hours ago, MikeF said: My view it that it needs a synthetic oil to extend its useful life. Yes I think thats right. When I got my new X2/50 there was no handbook, the main dealer said he would get one and post it on. After waiting a couple of weeks it hadn't arrived, so I phoned him and said I needed it for, among other things, to see what oil to put in. He eventually sent a handbook, but in the meantime put me through to their workshop foreman who told me they use 10w40 semi-synthetic. So I did - and when I got the handbook it confirmed the semi-synthetic I was using met the recommended spec. And I always changed it a bit more frequently than the recommended interval. So, all well and good I thought. But the van only did 90,000 miles before a sudden failed turbo and oil starvation necessitated a 'new' engine. I can't be sure, but suspect this might have been due to the semi-synthetic oil - even if it met the spec when it was new perhaps it degraded faster than fully synthetic would have done? As I understand it, the main advantage of synthetic is not that its better when new, but that it doesn't degrade as fast as mineral? (hence the extended drain intervals) So I will be sticking to fully synthetic oil from now on. Edited March 28 by John52 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onecal Posted March 28 Share Posted March 28 Hi Wow , That.s disgraceful that no handbook back then would not be forwarded by a main dealer to the owner of a new vehicle , but I supposed when asked he did post it on . Sad to hear the engine only got to 90,000 due to turbo failure and oil starvation ,considering you changed the oil more frequently than the recommended interval (good practice as those intervals are a tad ambitious) I hope you made contact with the manufacture through your dealer and had a positive outcome. I am taken aback at the very poor back up service from the manufacture portrayed here on this forum Regards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted March 28 Share Posted March 28 10 hours ago, John52 said: ...But the van only did 90,000 miles before a sudden failed turbo and oil starvation necessitated a 'new' engine... I thought that the reason for your Ducato engine's demise at around 90K miles was due to melted piston crowns. As this was a well-reported issue with the Ford-built "Puma" motor that I understand was fitted to your X250 van, I wonder if Fiat should be blamed for that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onecal Posted March 28 Share Posted March 28 (edited) Hi Only 90,000 miles on a well serviced engine , considering oil changed between recommended services as well 11 hours ago, John52 said: So I did - and when I got the handbook it confirmed the semi-synthetic I was using met the recommended spec. And I always changed it a bit more frequently than the recommended interval. So, all well and good I thought. But the van only did 90,000 miles before a sudden failed turbo and oil starvation necessitated a 'new' engine. It's far from good no matter who produced it . Who knows ?, singing their praise one minute and running them down another Very strange whats portrayed here. But hopefully all had a positive outcome in the end Regards Edited March 28 by onecal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted March 28 Share Posted March 28 3 hours ago, Derek Uzzell said: I thought that the reason for your Ducato engine's demise at around 90K miles was due to melted piston crowns. As this was a well-reported issue with the Ford-built "Puma" motor that I understand was fitted to your X250 van, I wonder if Fiat should be blamed for that. Yes it was the 2.2 Ford built Puma engine, I suspected melted hole in piston(s) because although ticking over ok when cold it was running uneven, like a shaft out of balance. When it first started it wasn't too bad, but gradually got more and more smoke with less and less power. I suspected oil was coming up through hole in piston(s) and burning in the cylinder(s) making all the smoke and loss of power. Eventually it would run away with itself and I would have to stall it to stop it over-revving. But then if you stopped it for half an hour or so it wasn't too bad again - as though the oil had drained back down through the hole in the piston(s). It happened after pulling up a long motorway hill on a hot afternoon, which was another thing that led me to suspect melted piston crown(s). It was well out of warranty, and I wouldn't have had much confidence in it if I had got it repaired. So I got a new X2/90 with the (hopefully) more reliable 2.3 engine after reading the mileages euroserve got out of them! I was using the X2/50 as a garden shed. But with the shortage of vans I kept getting people coming round seeing it and wanting to buy it who weren't put off by the state of it. At first I said it wasn't for sale as I was going to keep it for spares but there wasn't a lot I could use off it, and people still kept coming wanting to buy it so I eventually sold it as seen, and later happened to meet the fitter who put an engine in it taken from another van. He said my engine had a knackered turbo and signs of oil starvation, but hadn't stripped it down. He was just taking a few bits off it and scrapping the rest. He was very busy and didn't seem to have time to find out exactly what was wrong with it. So I don't know for sure. It may have been nothing to do with the oil, I just wondered if the oil, not being fully synthetic, had degraded leading to the knackered turbo? Whatever, I'm sticking to fully synthetic now just in case. Sorry about the diatribe, bet you wish you hadn't asked now 😃 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onecal Posted March 28 Share Posted March 28 Hi No not a nice thing to happen to anyone Regards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted March 29 Share Posted March 29 John52 OK - just idle curiosity. Ducato Owner Handbooks for X250 models with the 2.2litre 100 Multijet (Ford Puma) power-plant indicate that the 'correct' engine oil for earlier versions would have been SAE 5W-40 grade (Selenia WR - a synthetic-based oil) and, for later versions not long before the 100 Multijet motor was dropped from the Ducato range, SAE 5W-30 (Selenia WR P. E. - also a synthetic-based lubricant). But it seems unlikely that using 10W-40 oil instead would have had any ill effects. (There are plenty of on-line discussions about oil-related issues with this motor, many relating to the oil-pump, but I don't think there is any persuasive advice that changing to a fully-synthetic oil would have had protective value.) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onecal Posted March 29 Share Posted March 29 True I really don't think it would have made a lot of difference , I see another manufacture of a very well known and worldwide respected vehicle (Not a motorhome, but used on many a safari is in major trouble with their engine) Again I really think it does not make a lot of difference what oil may be used Always very important now to use a very low ash oil as DPF blockages are common Any delighted to see John got fixed up , sadly not a nice thing to happen when you are trying your best Regards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted April 1 Share Posted April 1 On 29/03/2024 at 08:03, Derek Uzzell said: John52 OK - just idle curiosity. Ducato Owner Handbooks for X250 models with the 2.2litre 100 Multijet (Ford Puma) power-plant indicate that the 'correct' engine oil for earlier versions would have been SAE 5W-40 grade (Selenia WR - a synthetic-based oil) and, for later versions not long before the 100 Multijet motor was dropped from the Ducato range, SAE 5W-30 (Selenia WR P. E. - also a synthetic-based lubricant). But it seems unlikely that using 10W-40 oil instead would have had any ill effects. (There are plenty of on-line discussions about oil-related issues with this motor, many relating to the oil-pump, but I don't think there is any persuasive advice that changing to a fully-synthetic oil would have had protective value.) Mine was the Citroen who used the same engine but tuned up to 120 hp by Citroen factory for the maxi-van, so the higher stresses wouldn't have helped. I passed the handbook on with it, but remember it recommended 'Total' synthetic but said A/3 B/3 oil was OK, and there was a temperature chart which indicated 10w 40 was OK for UK temperature range. As the semi synthetic 10w 40 was A3/B3, and suggested by the workshop foreman, I assumed it was OK. But when the guy swapping the engines said the turbo was knackered and there were signs of oil starvation, I wondered if the oil had degraded because it was only semi-synthetic? But I suppose the oil could have degraded because of the hole(s) in the piston(s) contaminating the oil in the sump? The engine was started and run many times after the symptoms started. So the knackered turbo and 'oil starvation' could have come after, and as a result of, the hole(s) in the piston(s)? And there was still the uneven running on tickover, like a washing machine trying to spin with the clothes stuck on one side out of the drum, out of balance suggesting the hole(s) in the piston(s) had affected the balance? Unfortunately I never found out because once he had saved a few external bits off it he chucked it in the donor van and sent it all off for scrap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted April 1 Share Posted April 1 On 27/03/2024 at 23:25, MikeF said: Having rebuilt a number of the MLGU 6 speed 2 shaft gearbox, I can confirm the box is marked 'fill 2.9l'. There is always some oil remaining after draining, perhaps 0.1l. Yes, thats where I got the 2.9l But then you get a manual saying different, and as Steve points out, it might make a difference what angle the box is mounted? I've never researched it because I've never changed the gearbox oil since manufacturers deleted it from the service schedule, or had any problems with a gearbox. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
veletron Posted April 17 Author Share Posted April 17 (edited) Having gotten home from my recent break, I thought I would add to this. - I measured the oil quantity that came out: 2.7L - I drained the (incorrect) new oil, and measured that, also 2.7L despite my having added 2.9L. Only real explanation for this is the presense of a 'Dam' when filling via the breather hole. - Given the above, I refilled with 2.7L of Experya as per MLGU gearbox requirement. Note that my using the wrong oil (Geartech) seemed to have resulted in a more notchy gear change, which is why I was keen to change it for what I not know to be the right oil Experya. Note that my drain plug did not have a copper washer, I note that other folks' did have a copper washer fitted. As such I added a copper washer to mine 16mm/22mm/1mm As expected, no metalic muck attached to the magnet on second change and the gearbox has essentially had a flush!! Thanks to all for their help here. I Re-applied some lanoguard too after washing off all the damned road salt. Edited April 17 by veletron 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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